I have been eyeing a BCM blemished lower. I have almost bought one several times. I just have other bills/priorities right now. $250 is an awesome deal though even just to squirrel away for a later date.
Truth.
I’m going to tell a short story, I decided I wanted my first AR-15 last October/November (I fired my first AR at the 2009 Silencer Shoot), then about a month or so later I had a friend come into town and shot his AR, I was at a cross roads of building an AR, or getting a .22 host and .22 can.
I decided to go AR, ironically I installed MOE Midlength Handguards on my BCM AR today.
But, honestly, it was a long road.
It started as a MOE FDE Pistol Grip Traded for a Black Magpul MIAD (once I had a $20 Pistol Grip… I knew I had committed and there was no turning back, funny how some minor things “seal the deal”), I then purchased a BCM Complete lower with Magpul CTR, in March.
Then I bought an LMT Ambi Selector in late March/Early April.
Then I bought the upper receiver (BCM Mid Length, Mod 4 CH) in Early June, with M16 BCG.
July I bought my BCM (Troy marked BCM) BUIS, August I bought an KAC Ambi-Mag Release.
Last week I bought my handguards to replace the standard ones.
I’ve still got an Aimpoint ML3, Surefire G2 (with some kind of mounting configuration), BCE 1.0 Battle Comp and BFG Vickers Tactical Padded Sling (Unsure of configuration) and I’m done with this rifle.
My brother was looking at the rifle today, and was making comments on how he really liked it now, etc, I told him “Yeah… I started this a Year ago as a Pistol Grip (A Broken one that Magpul replaced I might add)” I’ve known what I was going to build for over a year, it’s just taken time to build it.
I bought an Browning .22 Buckmark instead of the Lower, otherwise I’d be a lot ahead, and I’m saving for an Arsenal SGL 21.
But I’d say, buy quality.
If I had them available I would’ve bought a blem BCM lower.
I mean dude, 250$ for the BCM Lower ($373 with MIAD and CTR Installed) from G&R,
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=LWR-BCM
$591 for a BCM Mid Length Upper (BCM M16 BCG, Cav Arms HG, BCM Mod 4 CH)
http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?preadd=action&key=UPR-BCM
I mean are you kidding me? That’s $964 total.
Also rails, are great for mounting lights, slings and vertical foregrips. (ETA: I forgot to finish this, but they’re not a necessity, I mean I don’t have them, but, I was pricing an SBR today, and I’ve already got most of the way saved for an AK… I just don’t see the point to make a massive expenditure for a rail, there are ways to figure things out without a railed handguard)
Sure you’ll need to save for a BUIS, but damn, you can put a $50 Magpul BUIS on there if you just have to have one.
I like nice stuff, but I shop for deals, and honestly, for your AR needs… G&R’s hard to beat, quick with questions, easy to get along with.
I do as much business with the guy as possible, I’ve dealt with Bravo Company for products they sell as well, great company as well.
Heck I contacted them today, they sell an 11.5’’ SBR (Factory SBR, same configuration as an 6933) minus carrying handle for $1025 (Mod 0) or with the carrying handle for (Mod 1 for $1135).
I’m just saying.
I gotta believe that some of the el cheapo AR15 parts are made in China these days. Does anyone know for sure?
Always…when in doubt ask. There are enough forums out there. I have been worried in the past about the “cheap parts”. If you can find someone that has bought the part already, they are gonna be able to tell you if it is worth it, or not.
At the the off chance of sounding like a record. My grandfather always said to buy quality, period. If you don’t have the funds…save! Quality will always be reliable and you won’t have to second guess your purchase.
And for a slightly contrary point of view: Too many stake their ego on brand name and how they lay out their ultimate list of parts. When it comes right down to it, some parts are a commodity, and paying double gets you nothing but bragging rights.
Start with lowers, if there is a rollmark on it, it has fanboys. What you don’t hear about are the ones that give no fuss in assembly and keep on ticking. There are only a handful of lower forgers, and not even Colt does it. They buy platters from outside and machine to their specs. So do a dozen others, and more.
You don’t have to buy a Colt LPK to get beveled roll pins, other kits have them, mine did. You can assemble a lower and upper without expensive blocks and tools. What if it does get a mark? Ten years of use will diminish that as much as dragging it down the driveway. Well, how many buy jeans stonewashed and faded? Kinda poser to the old school. Shiny new doesn’t last either.
Any part of the gun can break, milspec or not. Choose which ones you want on them. It’s arguable if a forward assist is needed, or even a good solution to the problem of misfeeds. And since the preferred action to misfeeds is to eject, it then leads to the question, where should the charging handle be?
Center charging handles are ambidextrous but force the user to remove the weapon from the shoulder. Side charging handles, used by the support hand, allow the user to keep a sight picture and pick up the target much faster when chambered. Most combat rifles use side charger handles, the newest on either side interchangeably.
A case could be made for a left side charge A3 upper with no forward assist, and by comparing the SCAR, ACR, XCR, and others, you could save a bundle. That would be a different kind of savings, an ergonomic layout without the expense of a new firearm.
This all goes a lot deeper than just saving a buck not buying Tier one. And caliber hasn’t even been mentioned.
Let’s reiterate, buying quality parts doesn’t make you a “fan boy”. Do the research, crunch the numbers and make your purchase. I think you missed some people points here Tirod, “we”, as in most don’t buy name brand parts to boost our ego’s. We buy them based on the TDP and consistent quality and CS.
No one ever said that milspec parts won’t break. But since they are held to a higher standard why would you knowingly choose parts that haven’t been scrutinized? Especially if your life is on the line.
In my 24 years of experience of using the AR and having seen the various nightmares over the years (just check out these boards on a daily basis) if you buy some cheap shit you will get cheap shit results.
As far as lowers go. I could care less about “rollmarks”. What I do want is for the lower to be in spec and for the parts to fit as they should. Generally that means buying from manufacturers that have a track record.
if you truly believe that “parts are parts” you have alot to learn about the AR. Whether you choose to do so or not is entirely up to you.
The idea is to buy good gear from good people. I’ve owned a Colt in the past and have no interest in one for personal reasons. LMT & BCM are my go to choices. They make great stuff that works, they have excellent customer service and their prices are great too.
Right now, with prices the way they are, this is how I would go…
BCM Blem lower w/ M4 stock - $270
BCM Upper w/ BCG & forged CH - $520
BCM Handguards - $20 - $23
Magpul MBUS - $55
Total = $866 - $868
That is a great price for an awesome rifle. Hopefully their prices stay steady through Christmas so when my wife asks what I want I can say a gift card from G&R or BCM.
If your occupation is to come into direct conflict with other armed individuals, it would be silly to recommend a cheap gun. It would be better than no gun, but better yet with inspected and tested parts.
What you don’t hear is “Ok, if it’s just a range or hunting gun, you don’t really need Tier One. Even the Bargain Bin would do for sporting and fun.”
Why is that so hard to say? If the activity could be done just as well with a civilian bolt or lever gun, why insist the AR must be Tier One milspec and nothing less, as it is EVERY time.
No it does not need to be - for fun and sport. If it’s for defense against an opponent attempting to end your life, why take it that someone is recommending a lesser gun?
Of course not.
If anything, it confuses the distinct difference in use to insist on Tier One when it simply is not needed. How does spending hundreds more improve the experience of shooting an inexpensive AR on a basis of a couple of times a year, and maybe hunting.
A lot of owners are NOT going out every weekend with a couple of hundred rounds and tweaking their CQB responses. If anything, they get the darn thing and plan on actually shooting it “the next chance they get,” “next month,” “when find the time.” They actually have a decorator rifle in the corner of the bedroom drooling oil onto the carpet.
On the other hand, a police officer gets an issue M16A1 with carry handle, fixed stock, and the full auto parts deleted, and lives with the fact it has over 10,000 rounds through it with no parts replaced - because as we know, the Army has NO maintenance program, much less a preventive one.
We buy what we want, I don’t need an MPI bolt individually inspected, the batch will do. I don’t need the correct alloy barrel, with chrome, and frankly can do better without, for less. I don’t need to use those parts because quite honestly, it may take the rest of my life to put 5,000 rounds down range with it. And it will do just fine.
Those who plan to run 5K rounds in theirs before the end of this year certainly know better than to listen to the advice. And those who will and don’t know better will likely be ISSUED the proper weapon first.
I see good intent in recommending milspec, but after a certain point, it becomes an agenda of imposing a decision with out all the facts. And it is not necessarily the best thing to suggest only a TDP weapon as the only answer. The existence of a large number of other military weapons in use or being tested shows there still can be improvements.
Step back and look at the bigger picture.
You be happy with what you purchase Mr. Tirod, and leave us that do actually put rounds downrange weekly or sometimes daily, and depend upon said rifle for our lives make our purchases based upon sound judgment and the TDP. Granted there are no guarantees, but those of us who do the research and math know that there is a far less chance of failure when using quality parts in a weapon.
Go ahead and shoot dirt, we will use our weapons for a far greater calling when needed and know that they will function as expected. Who knows we might be the LEO/Soldier who saves your life or the life of your loved ones with the weapon we made sure to invest quality into. Or would you prefer we use a “Fudd” gun and hope it works when needed to render you the much needed assistance.
Good day!
Tirod
I think you have some good points. Only you know what you truly want and need. The problem is people are not always as clear as you are. Other people are dishonest and will say something is is just as good as X Y or Z when it is not. I like to save money but there are some things I will not buy with the intent of saving money. Guns and toilet paper come to mind. I buy regular gas for my truck that is all she needs. I buy good TP and LMT & BCM AR’s. The TP is kinda a joke but true. You end up using twice the single ply and it is uncomfortable. MRE toilet paper made me appreciate real TP. I also think for the price difference you can buy a great gun at times for less than a POS gun.
The BCM gun for about $880 as recently posted is a great gun and a great price.
To me, Tirod used to have a point. But no longer. Currently, the price of good ARs is so low, that to advocate a cheap AR is to advocate paying near the same price or more as a professional grade one.
About the cheapest POS will run you $700, which is S&W land, price-wise. Most of these turds with a magazine are in excess of $800, which is Spike’s/BCM land.
So in practicality, you are saying it’s “ok” to advocate Elmer Fudd to go ahead and buy that $950 DPMS piece of garbage at Gander Mountain/Bass Pro, because he can’t tell the difference between that and a similarly priced good gun.
At current prices, there is no justification for buying anything but tier 1.
You speak the truth.
I’ll make it as simple as possible. “A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus.”
Simply put buy a good AR and you can do everything else with it also.
Here is a better scenario- You are driving back from the range with your “range AR” and you are involved in a deadly force situation. You grab your “range AR” and go to use it and it fails and you die.
How much money did you just save? Is it really worth it? It’s not like we can predict when a situation is going to happen. So instead of rushing out to buy a piece of crap to satisfy some self gratification and being able to say “hey I have a cool looking AR rifle”. Save your money and buy a decent gun. Like the Colt that CDNN has on sale now. Or build one like I did for my wife that cost me less than 800.00. I haveno doubt it will hold up, because I didn’t cut corners and kept it simple.
In my experience here and elsewhere there are always those who will fail to see the light.
“A firearm should be considered a fighting weapon first. Any other use should be considered a bonus.” So, a 10 ga goose gun used in Michigan during the season needs to be milspec?
Sure, that’s taking things out of context - just as much as some have taken my words out of context. I never had a problem carrying my issue M16 a nothing, or it’s two replacements over the 22 years I served in the Army Reserve, Infantry, Ordnance, MP.
And saying milspec is now so cheap there’s no reason to buy lesser isn’t a justification. That isn’t a fact, it’s an assumption of the quality that is extremely hard to verify. Use the Chart, pick the best you can, and you’re still left with this: it only counts for the M4. Good luck with any other form of M16 on the open market.
Frankly, the milspec myth is that if all the components are verifiably so, you’d have the inspection paperwork and the stamped signoff from the Tank and Armaments Command. It would be engraved US GOVERNMENT PROPERTY, and Uncle Sam would like you to put it under his lock and key when it’s not in use. No semi auto AR15 qualifies, and never will.
Very few weekend shooters need that level of impeccable reliability, and as a retired soldier, I know for a fact it’s not a guarantee even if the gun is properly marked. Lowest contract bidder doesn’t get me a Noveske. I got Saginaws or FN’s. I earned my veteran’s status on duty with an M9.
In America, you can buy what you want, and if you have the money, sure, go ahead. That is not going to happen for others - a budget exists, whether on paper or in the back of the wallet, and if the goal is a plinking gun for the weekend and hunting, it’s not up to some pompous poster on the innerweb to tell them they will probably get killed getting a CMMG Bargain Bin special. Get over it - Americans can buy what they think they need, whether its a Club Cab F350 Diesel for the daily commute, or a Raven .32 for concealed carry. They make the decision and live with it. It often irks me no end, too.
If you are not confronting armed criminals or being shot at on a daily basis, then it’s OK to buy a non-M4, non-milspec gun and shoot dirt. No, some of us can’t find another $50 to blow on a hobby gun. That’s our ammo budget for the year. Life isn’t all about getting what you want sometimes, needs usually get met first, not toys.
I’m glad I don’t need to carry an LCP every minute of the day, it’s not milspec, a military caliber, and it will probably kill me even if I never need it. Is that what I’m being told?
You inability to grasp such a simple concept as reliable quality parts from vetted manufacturer’s befuddles me. I am done here, you enjoy life as you see fit. It is your right. Cheers and I hope that 50.00 annual ammo budget is a joke. :eek:
Because most other guns do not have aftermarket clones.
I cannot go buy a lower grade aftermarket clone of a Remington 870 or Benelli M1.
I cannot buy a lower grade aftermarket clone of a Winchester M70 or Accuracy International AW.
I cannot go buy a lower grade clone of a Glock 17 or S&W model 29.
Why should my AR15 be any different?