When to Splurge vs When to Scrimp?

AR/M4 Custom Build Forum
1

First, I just want to thank all the knowledgeable heads on this board for the wealth of information I’ve been able to glean during my short tenure here. Thanks to you, I know far more than ever before regarding steel grading, quality control and many other facets of the industry. Of course, I now have a plan for a custom build formulating in my head.

That said, I have a question that’s been rattling around in the back corner of my mind for some time now. At the risk of inciting a potential flame festival, here goes:

When is it OK to go cheap?

Now before we erupt into chants of “How much is your life worth?” and “Can you afford to have [COMPONENT] fail when your life is on the line?” please hear me out. I’m absolutely NOT talking about scrimping in the critical areas. I comprehend the importance of barrel steel. I understand what makes a quality BCG worth the money. I’m starting to grasp what goes into a good LPK versus a sub-standard one.

Here’s what I mean:

Is there a real, quantifiable, justifiable difference in quality in many non-critical components? Can you shave a few dollars here and there so you can afford to upgrade elsewhere? For example:

  • Is there a difference between the $2.00 handguard cap from RRA and the $15 piece from someone else?
  • Is there anything inherently wrong with the $4.00 A2 flash hider from DPMS vs the $9.00 A2 flash hider from Daniel Defense?
  • Is there ANY difference in quality between ANY ejection port cover ANYWHERE?
  • Does anyone expect the $18.00 forward assist button from Brownell’s to outperform or outlast the $8.00 button from Midway?
  • Is any one gas tube better than another? (I know, I know… this actually IS a critical component, but is it even possible to manufacture a bad one?)
  • Is your life in jeopardy if you buy your castle nut from Del-Ton? What if you buy your endplate from Model 1?
  • Is there such a thing as an “inferior” receiver extension (provided that it’s within specifications and it fits)?
  • Aesthetics notwithstanding, has anyones trigger guard ever “failed” on them?

Now, I understand that all these examples are perhaps trivial, with potential savings of only a few dollars here and there. However, by the time you’ve scoured over EVERY single component of your “build list,” those few dollars have added up. For some of us, that could mean the difference between this barrel or that, or the coating on your bolt. At the very least, it should cover the cost of a spare set of springs, pins washers or screws.

So where - exactly - would you feel comfortable “shopping price?”

(Be nice, guys… I ask this with good intentions.)

2

I always go toward the "least expensive"milspec buffer tube I can find each and every time. The last one I ordered was $17 from Palmetto. It was transplanted onto my Beretta CX4 by some “surgical procedures.” I cannot for the life of me consider spending twice as much on a VLTOR tube for any of my rifles.

I also did only spend $100 on a YHM Specter LW HG for my AR pistol. I like it’s installation method much more than my more expensive rails like my JP/VTac or my Troy MRF. Significantly more stable…The JP does look cool on my Grendel though :slight_smile:

If you’re making a plinking gun that you don’t want to depend on for your life, put the optic on it that fulfills the role of the weapon. If you’re making a weapon that you can trust your life on, do not skimp on optics. My SHTF gun has an Aimpoint Comp M2 and a TLR-1. And put good $$$ into your mounts. Basically it goes: If Larue is an answer, Larue is the answer.

3

I agree totally with you… in non-critical COSMETIC areas such as rail covers and pistol grips and so on I personally go as “inexpensively” (read cheap cheap cheap) as I can.

In fact, I’ll scrounge/beg/borrow (but not steal) used parts that are still good except they’re not “pretty” anymore.

What do I care bout pretty? I own SEVERAL cans of spray paint thanks.

One of the only areas that I refuse to go cheap on , besides barrel/LPK/BCG ,etc, is my optics.

Point in case,

Recently ,last week, I decided to clean out my “other peoples stuff” boxes in my shop. This all items left behind by either previous employees or friends who gave me stuff.

I found a very blemmed Colt upper receiver , minus it’s dust cover and with a broken FA. Easy fix there.

Found a M4 profile 1:8 16" barrel from Adams Arms that’s been on the shelf (ie unsellable) for 2 yrs.

Assembled a bcg from parts, staked it good and proper and headspaced the bolt and so on.

Found a Midwest Industries rifle length SS FF tube I forgot I had…

Assembled it all in about an hour… slapped a 3x9 on it and went to the range with a friend.

Got all setup and was expecting typical 1"-2" groups.

nope not today or since… the silly thing shoots 1/2 MOA all day long if you feed it 55gr V-max.

Total out of pocket for all this bang bang goodness?

under $200

4

Arcana,

I’ll post one example and you can think about it.

When I was in the military overseas we had an M4 (Colt) where the BCG completely froze up. It wouldn’t move no matter what I did. I assumed that something was jammed inside the upper.

I removed the entire buttstock assembly to discover that the pawl on the forward assist broke off. The forward assist consists of a pawl, joined to the forward assist by a roll pin, and a spring. In the end the upper receiver was damaged beyond repair and had to be replaced.

So that was pretty much a catastrophic malfunction. This was with a milspec Colt M4 carbine. Anything can break at any time. So why take chance by buying something like that of unknown origins?

5

Not to be a me 2 sort… but …

I’m with Irangunz about “system critical” parts.

Spend your money on the essential parts nescessary to ASSURE the proper function of you weapon.

If you think you “can get away with it” … you probably won’t.

The cosmetic stuff? Blemmed is just fine with me.

A can of Duracoat is cheap!

6

Yes, Colt handguard caps have sharper radius bends and a more consistent handguard lock up.

  • Is there anything inherently wrong with the $4.00 A2 flash hider from DPMS vs the $9.00 A2 flash hider from Daniel Defense?

Colt flash hiders have a more consistent wrench flat dimension and do not distort flats as easy.

  • Is there ANY difference in quality between ANY ejection port cover ANYWHERE?
  • Does anyone expect the $18.00 forward assist button from Brownell’s to outperform or outlast the $8.00 button from Midway?

I would suspect that mil spec parts like this have their components pinned in better.

  • Is any one gas tube better than another? (I know, I know… this actually IS a critical component, but is it even possible to manufacture a bad one?)

Compare a Colt tube to aftermarket, the Colt tube has more defined ends and more defined contours.

  • Is your life in jeopardy if you buy your castle nut from

Del-Ton? What if you buy your endplate from Model 1?

  • Is there such a thing as an “inferior” receiver extension (provided that it’s within specifications and it fits)?

Almost all aftermarket endplates and lock rings are shit and don’t stake worth a damn or dont sit flush on the rear of the lower.

  • Aesthetics notwithstanding, has anyones trigger guard ever “failed” on them?

Colt trigger guards have a chamfered roll pin hole to guide the roll pin in to prevent breaking of lower ears.

7

What Iraqgunz is saying is very important: the weakest link in a chain determines the strength of the chain. Two examples unrelated to guns, but relevant to the point. A retired friend ran an automotive transmission manufacturing plant back in Germany in the 80’s when “Japanese quality” began kicking American and German ass. He subsequently moved to Canada and ran an alternator plant that supplied Ford and GM. He told me that the single most common QC problem they had with their transmissions was that company policy mandated the use of cheap roll pins from the lowest bidder. When these tiny, apparently insignificant $.00001 parts failed, usually due to poor tolerances or bad heat treatment, the $250 transmissions failed. But with millions of these cheap parts being used annually, it added up to a lot of money that the greedy executives could not justify spending. The Japanese used machined pins, with proper tolerances and heat treatment, double checked for quality, a policy that naturally resulted in dramatically fewer failures, and much higher customer satisfaction. Over time, American and German manufacturers got tired of losing market share to the Japanese and decided (after it was too late, frankly) to use the better quality parts they should have used from the beginning. It wasn’t that the Japanese designs were that much better (at least back then). The problem was substituting cheap small parts and selling them as top quality to the consumer. This happens in the AR world too, and I can give you an example if you want it, although it will piss one of the moderators off since the culprit is his buddy.

Example two. I have owned two Nissan Maximas. Even though it is Japanese made, everything but the engine and drivetrain is American design. The power windows rely on a plastic part to link the electric motor/cable/window frame. This link is good for ten years or so, but it always go bad, and the windows fall down into the doors. The designers new it was a “weak link” but the design life was ten years, and plastic was good enough for a part hidden from the consumer’s eye.

If the gun is a toy, I suppose it doesn’t matter that small, cheap parts might ruin it as in Iraqgunz’s excellent example. But since you will not be buying hundreds of thousands of guns, and since you will personally and directly suffer if small, apparently insignificant hidden substandard parts fail, and since the incremental cost of using reliable parts is relatively small, a wise man will will buy the best LPK he can get his hands on, especially if you take your guns seriously.

8

IMO the upper and BCG are the most important parts

9

Agreed, the only things from your original list that I would also think is important are the forward assist and the receiver extention. Bravo Co. has a write up in their section explaining why the true milspec forward assists are stronger, and all milspec receiver extentions are not the same.

When some companies say their receiver extention is milspec, they are talking about the demention. Most are not constructed of the correct steel, nor do the have the receiver threads rolled in correctly, which results in a stronger extention tube. For receiver extentions, I would stay with Colt, BCM and LMT (LMT being my favorite). Both Colt and LMT are nicley polished inside which results in smoother running of the spring and buffer. I don’t know about the BCM unit.

As far as the A2 flash hider, the gun works with or without it on so it is not an important part in terms of reliability/durability of the weapon. Things like the wrench flat specs don’t have any effect on the function of the gun, they only let you put it on with less potential for damaging the finish.

The handgaurd cap, again the gun will shoot without it, so other than the previously mentioned fit and finish issues it is not important in my opinion (not that it’s worth much).

Trigger guard, again I don’t see much of an issue.

We all know that Colt is the gold standard, and I won’t argue that point. But this whole milspec, TDP thing has gotten just a bit out of hand. Obviously there is nothing to be argued about the BCG, HP/MPI testing, and use of correct steel and aluminum as that stuff just makes sense. But, you can have a durable and reliable weapon if you choose to go cheap on the non-critical parts (like flash hiders).

My agency issues a mix of Bushmaster and Colt select fire carbines. The Bushmasters have the staking issues fixed, have H buffers and guess what…they run fine. They hold up to repeated full auto burst strings of fire during our qual courses and training days, and nobody has had any real trouble with them. My issue gun is a Colt, and I am happy about that, but once the issues are addressed, the Bushmasters have served my agency fine. I am not a Bushmaster lover, nor do I intend to turn this into a Bushmaster gets a bad rap thread as we all know they do have some issues. I just point it out to show that once you address some issues, they can serve you fine. (ETA…sorry I just realized you were not the OP, point still stands though).

10

While this stuff might not have a major impact on fuction, it does have a major impact of the reputation of the builder that put the gun together.

Things like wrench flat marks and scuffs on the upper receiver from a vice block are unacceptable.

Non factory assembly marks are unacceptable.

11

I believe that the issues you will see with the Bushamsters will manifest themselves down the road, especially as the gas ports begin to erode. You should see if your department will splurge for a Hawkeye Borescope and do some checking of the Colts and BM’s.

12

Gunz, I am sure you are right as I know you have some very good practical experience. Some of the Bushys are very old and still run fine with proper PM. Once they start to show serious problems from over use or just wearing out, our department just scraps them for the newer Colts that have been what they are buying for some time now.

Interestingly enough, some of our Bushy barrels are stamped MP and or HP (I forget which right now) which is something I noticed while running our last quarterly tactical training. I don’t know what vintage year Bushy may or may not have done these things, but I was supprised to see it. I also wonder if they do in fact do this for the LE/Mil class 3 guns.

I was certainly not trying to imply that the Bushy is equal to the Colt and I hope that was evident in my post. I will freely admit that the Bushys my agency still has run fine and I would trust them as my issue gun. I am just lucky I have one of the new Colts :smiley:

13

Bushmaster marks them B MP. It is a marketing gimmick that they use to “confuse” people in to thinking they are like Colts with their CMP marking.

FWIW- I emailed Bushamster 3 days ago to ask a few simple questions. I am still waiting…

14

While it’s outside the scope of M4C, I say either do one or the other. Either Scrimp completely and buy the cheapest POS you can find, or buy Spike’s quality at a minimum.

You can still build an $500 Franken-gun from brand new parts.

This gives you a $300 cushion, max, for ammo and “fixing” of your POS. Fortunately for me, when I was in my “cheap AR” phase, I worked in an aviation shop and could jury rig/fabricate about anything, so I could shoot a couple thousand rounds of ammo with that price difference, and consider the fixing of the POS AR as a learning experience.

I just don’t get why you’d scrimp and save $50 on a $1000+ carbine.

15

That’s kind of what I was thinking.

And that’s exactly why I was asking. Thank you.

Colt. Got it. Understood.

Well, let’s say you only have $950. :sad:

Again… thanks for all the input, guys.

16

Practice Ammo.

I bought cheap magazines, caused two… I wouldn’t call them weapon malfunctions necessarily, then again it halted function.

I shop deals. I buy quality, but I sure do shop the crap out of deals for quality.

I find when you buy good quality stuff, you forget how much you paid for it, but you know you don’t regret it months, years, etc. down the road.

I’ve also bought stuff for cheap and been plagued by issues or spent money “fixing” it that I could’ve spent the same amount or less and had no problems from the word go.

I never seem to get a break when I buy cheap stuff.

17

I would say do things like using standard GI handguards, instead of a rail is a smart way to save money. Also buy things as you can afford them. You do not need it all at once. I know if I were buying now I would buy a BCM blemished lower you get it for $250 you will have shipping $15 and you may have a transfer fee too. You will need a stock say $25 on the EE board here.

Buy quality used gear when possible. That will save you money w/o compromising quality gear.

BCM uppers are on sale now for $385 add a BCG and standard CH when you buy an upper you get for $520. You will need a BUIS and handguards. There are Matech sights on sale on the EE for $46 and handguards for about $16. That is everything on a good kiss rifle, for less than $900 w/o shipping.

18

For 950.00 you can put together a good carbine- simple yet good.

Buy this lower assembled- http://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=124

Buy this upper- http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-BFH-16-Mid-Length-Upper-Receiver-Group-p/bcm-urg-mid-16%20bfh.htm
and add in the BCG. Then buy a Magpul MOE handguard. That will be you at around 980.00.

I have said 100 times on this site. Unless you know that the world is ending tomorrow and you need it now, wait a little longer and get something good. You could buy the upper or lower now, wait another two months and then get the remainder.

If you are stressing on this, then you won’t have the money to buy ammo and mags which means you have an expensive club.

19

Excellent advice from IG. One more thing wit the 16" middy you can add a bayonet so you have a spear too.

20

Great advice IG…I would also consider subbing out a BCM seconds lower…can save a few more bucks, and still have all the right parts and quality.