When *exactly* is your finger in the trigger guard?

General Firearms Handguns - Semi Auto
1

People are generally taught to keep their finger indexed until they are ready to shoot. Various vids for example on the 4 point draw have the finger indexed along the gun right up until the shot is taken, and advice is given to disengage safety (if one exists) only at that time you are ready to take the shot. The safest method no doubt, but potentially slower. I picked this vid at random, so if it’s not a good example, please put up a URL for what you feel is the “perfect” presentation for this discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=VQQz_-fCXYQ&feature=related

Now when watching people shoot, especially under speed, it’s been my observation that in reality, their finger is in the trigger guard prior to full punch out.

Faster, but requires greater trigger control and has potential for NDs when really pushing at your outer limits. Note in this vid, during the slow presentation, he’s indexed right up to full punch out, but note as he speeds it up, his finger is on trigger before reaching full punch out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=UcPeK6wuw1g&feature=related

Note exactly at 1:32 of Magpul Dynamics vid that finger is in trigger guard as support hand meets gun well before punch out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch#!v=6u6ZwcMuHnk&feature=related

On my draw stroke, I disengage the thumb safety (1911) during part 2 of the 4 part draw stroke, and finger is on trigger at approx 2/3 of the way of part 4, so the shot breaks the instant I aquire the target.

No doubt, experience levels and other factors come into play here. At full speed, when exactly does your finger go into the trigger guard?

Comments/thoughts on the above observations?

2

My opinion, I practice a press out, if I’ve already made the decision to fire the finger goes on the trigger at about the step 3 stage (ie when you hands come together in the center of your chest) I then prep the trigger so I can shoot the moment my sights are aligned at the end of the press out.

This is the way I’ve been trained by numerous schools. Gunsite, Gray Guns, P-T, et al.

This allows you to increase your speed dramatically particularly with double action guns like the Sig DA/SA.

If I haven’t made the decision to fire my finger stays on the safety spot on the gun through out the draw. For me shooting Sigs, and being a righty that would be the back side of the take down lever (on my Sigs the finish of the take down lever is worn from my finger being there so often).

3

A few.

  1. Finger placement on the trigger should be considered in relation to whether or not there has been a decision to actually fire the weapon. When I hear the buzzer…or see the guy with the knife coming at me…I’ve decided to put a bullet in what’s in front of me. Exactly when whatever I intend to perforate gets a bullet is immaterial. At some ranges I may not bring the weapon to a full presentation to make the shot. I may be barely out of the holster and yet able to fire a shot that will hit my intended target/threat if I am at close enough range.

  2. If someone is doing a press-out it means that they are aligning the sights and manipulating the trigger so that the shot actually breaks as their arms hit extension…they are not waiting for their arms to be at extension to align the sights and pull the trigger. They are doing all of it at the same time. This means that their finger is going to be on the trigger “early”…but, again, that has to be considered in the context of the decision to shoot.

When moving at speed I probably have my finger on the trigger taking slack out as I’m firming up my weak hand grip and beginning the press out…probably about where my usual ready position would be…but I’ve made the decision to shoot something and I’m indexed on what I want to hit. If I break the shot before my arms are at full extension, no big deal. I don’t do draw by the numbers so I can’t pinpoint my trigger finger placement other than to tell you that when I’m pressing the gun out toward the target I’m already on the trigger, slack out, working the sear release so that hopefully the gun goes bang before my arms hit full extension. This all assumes that I’m trying to deliver a shot on target immediately after the draw.

Is it possible for somebody to get goofy on the trigger by trying to go fast? Sure. That’s why they should first understand what they are doing and how they are supposed to do it before trying to beat Todd Jarett’s draw times. They need to understand the relevance of time frame. If I’m going slowly by the numbers it may look different than if I’m trying to put up a 1.50 or better hit from the draw. In slow mo I have ample time to manipulate the trigger. At 1.50 speed I have to get on the trigger earlier to achieve the intended result.

The short and simple answer is: Sometime after the weapon is indexed on the target.

4

Excellent comments, thanx.

5

What JW777 says is spot on IMHO. I would add, however, that I see and hear a lot of shooters getting WAY ahead of themselves in competitive shooting. Beginning to worry about trying to take the slack out of the trigger on press-out in order to save a tenth (hundredth?) of a second when that shot has at best a 50/50 chance of striking the -0, the subsequent reload can be timed with a sundial, and they lack the physical ability to move to the next shooting position anytime between now and next Thursday, is a little premature.

Not saying that’s the case here, just saying that IMHO you work on big time savers first and small time savers later, and all of that comes AFTER basic marksmanship ability to hit the target.

6

All makes perfect sense. The questions/thread was not about knocking time off for competitive shooting per se, more just a general interest thing on the mechanics.

7

Exactly. In a body alarm stress situation, finger goes in the trigger once the weapon is oriented towards the target. It is optimal if you obtain a proper sight picture first, but if the situation dictates it, you may fire effective rounds into the target by point-shooting at very close range.

I practice drawing with finger outside the trigger guard, and placing it on the trigger and taking up slack as arms come to full extension on the press out. If I decide to fire, it can be done effectively with a correct sight picture. If I decide to hold fire, that’s easy as well, but I remain ready to return fire if necessary.

8

Exactly…and I believe the time spent practicing on those big time savers helps you get to those small ones with a goodly amount of control to ensure good hits. Of course, this all assumes you are not picking up nor practicing bad habits while doing this. That is the reason, IMHO, that some professional training course time is essential…expand on the good habits and leave the bad ones behind.

9

This is how I was trained as well and how I do it today. But I do have to wonder at the back of my mind how many cops in the excitement of the moment have accidentally pulled the trigger when they only meant to present their weapon? :confused:

10

When do I do it? When I have positively identified a threat that needs to be shot, I am on target and ready to fire.

As mentioned above, I may have perceived a shootable threat even before I draw, so theoretically I am already in a mindset where I am ready to fire, but I just need to go through the mechanical motions of placing my weapon into firing position. I may also be on target with the muzzle long before a nice extended presentation, so yes my finger may already be on the trigger prior to extension and I may break that shot far prior to a nice extension.

Weapon dependent, distance / situation dependent, I may be opting to break a shot nearer to lockout and indeed I may be taking slack out of the trigger during the press out, however I have already leveled the weapon on target, have identified a shootable threat and my intention is to pull the trigger. However for my own reasons I may be wanting to perhaps get a better sight alignment / sight picture where I may have the need, or have the luxury of gaining accuracy over speed of initial hits with a full presentation. None the less I have everything I need to shoot far prior to the press out. Now this type of shooting, taking the slack out of a trigger, or prepping the trigger may not be the best thing for everyone, especially taking into consideration shooter skill or the weapon / trigger being used. But that may be a tangent to the original question.

In relation to shooting a person when we shouldn’t or didn’t intend to, I will also say that we should not be covering a person with our muzzle if they are not shootable to begin with and also our finger should not be on the trigger either.

11

I think Surf said it perfectly.

If I’ve identified a deadly threat, then my finger will move to the trigger as I’m coming up near my chest, as my muzzle comes to target.

If I only mean to present my weapon, than my finger stays on the trigger guard.

I’ve identified what type of threat the threat is before I’ve drawn.

I can’t think of a situation where I’d draw my weapon and muzzle sweep a person or object that I didn’t perceive to be a threat of some sort.

So if I present my weapon, it’s not to ask if somebody is a threat, it’s to persuade them to stop, hoping that a loaded weapon helps to persuade them. If after that I feel as if my life is endangered then a double-tap will commence, once I have properly identified the threat as a proper one.

I believe this method is the best to avoid an ND, and to avoid endangering a bystander.

12

Pretty much a re-run of what has already been stated here previously…

When I have made a conscious decision to fire AND my muzzle is orientated/indexed on-target.

An illustration to put my comment into context:

13

My finger is working the trigger when I obtain my full firing grip before I punch out. I “stage” the trigger, I know where it breaks I might as well get the slack out of the way before I break the shot.

14

It’s not something I consciously really ever think about. I say this because the human mind is really only capable of doing one thing at a time extremely precisely. Sure you can chew bubble gum and walk at the same time. A surgeon can’t say do neurosurgery and answer emails at the same time. I get a lot of people saying you should be doing this or that while shooting sometimes from coworkers, sometimes from clients…99.9% of the time it’s from people who really aren’t very good shooters and they read this/heard that from uncle Bill a draft era Vet said this or that. If you’re thinking about it you’re doing it wrong.
Shooting should be automatic. It should be just a reaction just like if you feel you hand burning while cooking you pull your hand rapidly away from the heat source, you don’t think about it…it just happens. Shooting should be with no more thought than ‘shoot this’, or ‘DON’T shoot that’. Honestly I think if you’re shooting and thinking about things while shooting than your shooting isn’t automatic. If you’re thinking about things while shooting you need more time shooting under the timer. More trigger time using the timer will usually result in subconscious shooting especially when pushed past your comfort level.

I’ve seen video of myself shooting in a match I get on the trigger on the press out typically after my non-shooting hand is in full support. When watching myself in slow motion video if the target is very close 5yds or so I’m actually breaking the shot just as the arms reach extension. At longer targets beyond 15yds or very small targets its takes a few 10ths to 100ths of a second to correct the sights.

15

Agree with most of what was brought-up here. I was taught a long time ago " on target on trigger, off target off trigger" and this usually refers to movement in a team environment but can also apply to the target ID process as well.

This also assumes that the targets in which we do the most of our training on are threat targets. So, in essence, we have given ourselves the “green light” to engage the target whether we are at the range working on marksmanship fundamentals, multiple shots, multiple targets, reloading, etc.

A great tool that I use to see if guys and gals are actually performing to the standard in which they are training to, are Sims. For some reason as soon as you throw someone in a FOF scenario in which there is the potential for a role player to fire back, everyone’s finger wants to do what’s refered to as “trigger search.” As they are searching for any role players that could pose a deadly force threat, their fingers will go into the guard and on the trigger itself, regardless if a role player is present or not. This is one of the things we have to look for and constantly correct when running scenarios.

So far, good stuff being posted on this topic.