What's wrong with just poking holes?

General Firearms Terminal Ballistic Information
1

Not accusing any of you of this, but it seems that many people get offended when someone says that bullets poke holes in you…

I guess people want to believe that their gun, if only their gun, is a death phaser, a lightening bolt from Zeus, that explosions will occur at the point of impact much like Tackleberry’s revolver completely destroying his target with one shot in the movie “Police Academy”.

Puncture and laceration are actually very effective means of damaging living tissue. I’m always amazed at the seeming lack of effort it takes for our Forensic Pathologists to completely disassemble a human body with a small, visibly unimpressive, scalpel.

Perhaps we have become too accustom to seeing fictitious portrayals of bodies exploding, or flying through the air when shot, yet only seemingly insignificant small red lines appear when they are cut or stabbed.

Puncture and laceration are much more dynamic and destructive than many imagine. Seeing internal organs punctured by even handgun rounds will show just how effective this mechanism is - even with the lack of “hydrolic/hydrostatic/superdeathmagic shock”.

Quality rifle rounds can do tremendous laceration from a cascade of seemingly insignificant fragments burrowing multiple paths into surrounding tissue - slicing as they go.

Intentional, aggressive slashing and (especially) stabbing with edged weapons are both amazing and terrifying to behold.
Guns will remain popular as they give the huge advantage of distance, but most edged weapons intentionally used will trump guns in shear, massive tissue damage.

I have, as others on here I’m sure, seen more than one incident where by chance an edged weapon was pitted against a gun… don’t be so sure the gun will always win.

One “victim” learned the hard way the other day:
He brought a gun.
His female victim was drinking beer from a bottle.
Female strikes bottle against nearby hard object, and it obliges her by producing a protruding jagged shard.
Shard is plunged into left side of man’s neck then pulled around to the right side, both quickly incapacitating and nearly decapitating him….
…He never got off a shot.

Don’t knock “simple laceration” - it has worked very well since the dawn of time….

2

I am going to try and keep this short and to the point.

Generally, the denizens of this website are “more serious” users of firearms than most of the population.

As such, one of the valued attributes of the firearms discussed is the most effective ammunition.

Generally speaking, in 5.56x45mm, this type of ammo is 62 gr. or heavier and fragments in a pronounced fashion after it passes through 90 deg. in its yaw.

:slight_smile:

3

??? Uh… Okay…
Not exactly the response I was expecting… :confused:

4

Not sure what response you were looking for when your thread is titled “What’s wrong with just poking holes?”…

:slight_smile:

5

which of course, begs the question, what response were you looking for?

6

I agree with this statement, but I don’t see how it equates with “poking holes”. With a thread title like yours I was expecting you to argue that non-fragmenting ball ammo was as effective as either expanding or fragmenting ammo.

7

It has been stated many times on this site that it’s not just about poking holes but where the holes are poked. Ammunition that is engineered for the defense role will make those holes deeper while imparting as much energy as possible into the wound channel.

If the woman in your story had used the broken bottle to poke an area of the body that was less vital then the outcome would have been different. :wink:

8

Lookin4U,

I bet you have a martial art background, like I do. I think you are trying to make the case that a bladed weapon is superior to a gun at close ranges. While this is often true, I carry both and train at bringing either into action if needed.

Many people do FOF training and know how quickly a knife fighter can get in on someone. But, from my experience the weak point of the knife is that once you break his cutting range, either through body movement, damage to his lower limbs, or environmental barriers, it is all but useless unless thrown.

Anything that pokes holes in you is bad, be it a gun, knife, or a piece of rebar.

9

Pistol bullets poke holes in tissue.

Rifle bullets poke holes in tissue, along with potentially violently stretching it resulting in torn tissue, as well as occasionally shredding tissue with fragments.

10

This comment makes the fragments sound like they are both great in number and that penetration from them is deep…

Most fragmenting rifle rounds I am thinking of at the moment may be numerous, but don’t typically penetrate deep, or travel far from the original bullet path…

11

From: https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=34714

“Projectile fragmentation in tissue can also greatly increase the permanent cavity size. When a rifle bullet fragments in tissue, each of the multiple fragments spreads out radially from the main wound track, cutting its own path through tissue. This fragmentation acts synergistically with the stretch of temporary cavitation. The multiply perforated tissue loses its elasticity and is unable to absorb stretching that would ordinarily be tolerated by intact tissue. The temporary cavitation displacement of tissue, which occurs following the passage of the projectile, stretches this weakened tissue and can grossly disrupt its integrity, tearing and detaching pieces of tissue. Note that handgun bullets, regardless of whether they are fired from pistols or SMG’s, do not generally exhibit the fragmentation effects produced by rifle bullets. If handgun bullets do fragment, the bullet fragments are usually found within 1 cm of the permanent cavity; wound severity is usually decreased by the fragmentation since the bullet mass is reduced, causing a smaller permanent crush cavity.”

What “Lookin4U” has stated makes perfect sense to me.

12

If you are interested in hole poking, here is a video of a medical seminar last year titled- Non-Op Management of Abdominal Trauma. The discussion may be of interest to those who are interested in trauma care, and there are numerous interesting examples of hole poking…

http://www.resus2010.com/

Click on the 2nd video.

13

Thanks for the vid link, Ninja. That was a very interesting presentation.

About 1/2 of shots to the abdomen do so little damage that the victims don’t even need surgery. I never would have guessed.

14

Ummm… actually you are quite correct, and I feel sort of ‘stupid’… somehow I was thinking more about what handgun bullets do…

Please ignore the knucklehead behind the curtain… :frowning:

15

Sorry gentlemen,

The preceding musing was based on frequent challenges I receive at stating that handgun rounds by-and-large simply puncture/lacerate tissue. Also it is directed to the general populations apparent ignorance as to what true laceration (as opposed to accidental nicks and cuts) can accomplish.

Indeed, firearms give a tremendous multiple range advantage while any contact weapon has of necessity a very definite limit on its usable range.

Not directed at any of you, whom I do not know, but many seem to relegate the puncture/laceration effect of firearm rounds to insignificance - opting instead to tout energy transfers, cavitation, and some destructive field emitted by the projectile as the only meaningful destructive mechanisms.

Laceration and puncture are very efficient and effective forms of tissue destruction, and should not be so easily dismissed - indeed they are the mechanism of tissue damage in handgun rounds.

Also, yes, as a matter of fact, after many edged weapon investigations and having personally nearly died from an edged weapon assault, I am fully convienced that within their range they are far more destructive than commonly carried firearms.
(It took several months and three surgeries to recover (for the most part) from a single deep stab to the lower abdomen I suffered while effecting an arrest)

16

That being said, the mechanism effected by yaw and fragmentation is largerly to increase both puncture and tissue laceration…

17

All I know is what I see when I cut open (and cut apart) the deer I just shot.

55GR. SP’s are only so-so…

But, the 64GR Winchester Power Points, at 152 yards, landing perpendicular into the chest cavity of a 160-170 pound deer… Penetrated 2 inches, than violently fragmented turning heart and lung tissue into red jelly. The fragments did not reach the opposite side inner chest cavity. There was no bruising at the entry point. Death by blood loss ( i assume), came in 10 seconds or less.

I was VERY impressed with this load.

18

I am really enjoying these discussions here of late!!!

I would rather be in a discussion like these since ‘Lookin4U’ came over here to M4 than any argument or disagreement at GT or here at M4…

There are different views being given here, and although there are some minor differences in views and larger differences in experiences… there is a ‘thread’ of agreement running through it all. Quite refreshing, very professional behavior, and many things being said to make me think.

This is what ‘discussions’ should be all about… to make us THINK!!!

Thank you to all of you here at M4… I really appreciate it…

19

I guess we are talking past each other. I must have assumed that you were trying to make some other kind of point with your original post. Honestly I’m still not 100% sure, so I’ll just bow out.

whistles

20

I do not doubt your account of this event, but 10 seconds of the heart failing to pump/move blood would not cause death or even a cessation of activity. Some other force was at work, imho. I have no clue what.

We know so little about terminal ballistics it seems, when we get right down to it.