I’m slowly acquiring the gear I’ll need to start doing some carbine courses in2009. I was hoping some of the veterans could give me some advice about what sort of pistol is appropriate. I’d like to use something that would also be a good carry weapon/holster.
Specifically…
Would a non-collapsing IWB holster be appropriate?
Any problem with using a compact?
Generally, what range are you engaging targets at?
Any minimum as far as magazine capacity (for instance a compact .45 may only be 6+1)?
I know that these issues will vary from instructor to instructor but I just wanted to get some general ideas.
This is an extremely broad question - don’t get too hung up on it.
Don’t get too hung up on “getting the right gear” to do a carbine class either. Class comes first, then gear. The instructor will let you know the minimum requirements.
Generally IWB holsters are not used in carbine classes, but some instructors will let you use them and some will encourage them.
I don’t think a compact would be an issue, but you would be better off using a larger framed pistol, generally speaking - they tend to be easier to shoot.
Pistol transitions are generally done inside 25m. Pistol drills in the class may go out to shooting steel at greater than 100m.
The capacity of the 1911 is the minimum, I’d say. More importantly is to keep an appropriate number of magazines on your person.
The best thing you can do is talk with the individual instructor beforehand. FWIW, most pistols I see in classes are Glock 17’s and 19’s, S&W M&P 9’s an 45’s (full size) and semi-custom or custom 1911’s. I see a smattering of SiG’s and H&K’s as well.
Thanks for all the good responses so far. I’ll probably go with an M&P 9mm and save for a Wilson CQB. The reason I ask about a IWB is that I’m a civilian so this is by far the most likely way I’ll be carrying. I could certainly get a drop holster just for courses but I’d rather train with a holster that I’ll be using on a regular basis.
In my experience, the handgun segment of long gun classes tends to assume some prior handgun training. Personally, as a private citizen, I’d put handgun training as a higher priority than carbine training, then take a carbine class with whatever handgun you’ve been trained with.
Beyond that, any reliable, durable handgun that fits your hand and has decent sights and a decent trigger. You’ll probably be unnecessarily compromised in terms of shootability if you use some kind of subcompact. Also, most instructors are geared toward semi-autos (because they’re now 3/4 or more of the U.S. handgun market, and far higher than that in LE and military use), so showing up with a revolver may throw people off.
As for holsters, I can’t say I’ve studied every policy of every carbine instructor, but I can tell you from personal experience that InSights Training Center has no problem with anyone using an IWB. The only limitation (which applies to all holsters for their classes) is that the holster must be “rigid.” I took their rifle and shotgun classes with a Kramer IWB #3, which is what the instructors were using for both courses, too.
I noticed on Pat Rogers’ website the other day that he doesn’t allow IWBs for his pistol classes, but doesn’t state this limitation for carbine classes. In a case like that, I’d follow the policy that it never hurts to ask. If the IWB isn’t allowed, I’d get a belt holster that carries the pistol at a similar location and angle, such as the Kramer belt scabbard as an alternative to the IWB #3.
I’ve taken one out of three handgun classes with a revolver and the instructor did not bat an eye. I’ve asked about using wheelguns in the other two classes and even though I used semis, both instructors told me they had no problems with wheelguns. All they asked is that you bring lots of speedloaders. Not a problem, they are cheap.
Back on the topic of holsters. Definitely ask ahead. I know that Suarez International has two policies concerning holsters: 1) Blackhawk SERPAs are not allowed in any class, period. 2) Belt (IWB or OWB) holsters are not allowed in rifle classes if you wear a chest rig. Policy #2 stems from an AD caused by a chest rig strap getting caught in the trigger guard of a Glock as the pistol was being reholstered. If you wear a chest rig to a Suarez rifle course you must wear a holster below the belt or on the chest rig itself.
Based on the wording of your question, I would suggest a Glock 17 or M&P9 with an OWB kydex holster and mag pouches – on a sturdy belt like a 5 stitch Wilderness.
The people I have seen use IWB holsters in combined classes were usually VERY proficient in the use of a pistol, knew how to draw from IWB without sweeping the other people on the line, and were above average pistol shooters.
Most IWB holsters I’ve seen are meant to be worn at the 4 or 5 o’clock position on a righty. Other than appendix carry, obviously - but those holster are kinda rare. Making a draw stroke on a line pretty “interesting”.
I would HIGHLY suggest a pistol course before the carbine course, or a 1 day pistol 2 day carbine, or something similar.
Fair enough and I should have put a great big YMMV on my comment about revolvers.
I do think it’s fair to say (based in part on the AARs and pictures I see here) that revolvers are not “the norm” in defensive long gun classes today, and the proportion of instructors who have serious experience (especially operational experience) is likely declining. Two thirds of all handguns made in the US in the last 20 years have been semis, according to BATFE production stats, and imports would certainly skew that even farther.
In the four handgun classes I’ve taken over the last 10 years, I’ve seen only three or four revolvers, and one of those was carried by an instructor. In the three long gun classes I’ve taken in the same time period, no student used a revolver.
+1. That’s a very true statement though I’m not sure they “assume” prior handgun training, so much as the students are invariably in desperate need of it.
Nonetheless a pistol class will help you be a better carbine shooter, the reverse isn’t the case.
Kind of depends on the course. If it is a carbine course, you generally are not going to shoot more than a couple hundred rounds (depending on how many times your carbine fails for the instructor wants to practice transitions).
An IWB could work, but it depends on many variables (like are you wearing a chest rig, belt rig, etc). I would generally say that an IWB holster is not the best choice.
I would avoid taking a compact as you might be shooting at 25yds (or farther).
1911 of course, because anything else would be un-American:D
That being said, Ive never been able to do any training courses with a 1911 since Ive always been issued a Beretta or a SIG.
This comming summer when my favorite M4C banned trainer comes to Indiana I will finally get to do a course with my 1911 since I dont have an issue weapon at the moment:cool:
I think you need to decide what is a good 1911 for you, and get some training on that before you try and add a new 1911 to the mix off everything new you will learn in a carbine class.
As a general rule, remember that part of the reason you’re taking the course is to learn what the instructor thinks about gear, etc. Therefore, don’t spend too much money up front getting ready for class only to learn that you walked in with a bunch of crap, or a bunch of stuff the instructor thinks is crap. Some instructors can’t help but spend inordinate amounts of training time berating students’ equipment choices. It’s stupid, but it’s common.
Don’t buy a handgun for a class. Buy a handgun that works for you given your broader needs and goals. Then bring that to the class. Not to sound snide, but if your skill & experience level is such that this is your first class and you’re asking on the internet for advice about which gun to buy, your skill & experience level is going to be the limiting factor in your performance … not your choice of pistol.
I carry in an AIWB all day every day. The only reason I’d use a different holster in a class was if I were using armor or a chest rig that prevented me from drawing the gun from IWB/AIWB. This then leads to the question, “Why are you wearing that rig if you don’t touch it except for class?”
An instructor would need to give me a very good reason why an IWB holster wasn’t allowed in his class before I’d sign up. And “they’re not safe” isn’t going to cut it …
This is what I’m doing. Unless open carry is a job requirement, I don’t foresee ever carrying openly, so my training will be done with an IWB holster or an OWB holster in the same spot.
'Cause it’s smart stuff and bears repeating. I’m reconsidering the M4 LE chest rig I currently have and am highly considering a Hawkepaks E&E Bug Out Bag or something similar, since it’s more likely that if something happens where I’m pulling a rifle, I’m more likely to sling over a should bag than put on a chest rig (which I haven’t figured out how to do quickly). It should also be noted that the Eagle M4 chest rig’s belt strap buckle sits directly on top of where I carry my pistol, which is a definite no-go I haven’t thought through a solution for yet.
