There’s always going to be IF’s, but “IF” you want to see the accuracy potential with the RDS as used, it’s possible to shoot groups substantially smaller than the dot size. Is it the most practical - no, but hammonje - it’s absolutely possible to line up a rifle on a benchrest, run some match rounds through it, and shoot tight groups regardless of the optic used. The center of the dot could be yards away from the POI, it just needs to be consistent.
Simple mechanical accuracy can be a useful and valuable metric for a rifle, but coming back to it from an angle of actual application, those ifs don’t matter nearly as much. Odds are in a carbine with a reflex sight the real goal is to turn the brightness up a bit higher to acquire the dot quickly and be able to engage a target somewhat accurately, but very quickly.
I’ve never done this type of shooting before so it was interesting to see the results. My normal plinker ammo is PMC and it looks like it’s much better than the XM193AF out of this barrel. These were shot off a bench using a Caldwell TackDriver front rest with support hand in the rear. I centered the dot within the bull but will try to use the edge next time.
BCM BFH 16" Middy
Aimpoint Comp M4 2MOA
Geissele SSA
6" Shoot-N-C
Ammo used:
PMC Bronze .223
Federal/Lake City XM193AF
Prvi Partizan .223 Match 75gr
Fiocchi Exacta Match w/ 77gr Seirra MatchKing
Sighting in target. Made minor adjustments at 25yd to get where I wanted.
PMC Bronze - I did not zero after I sighted it in at 25yd so shots were low and I had one miss.
Federal/Lake City XM193AF
Prvi Partizan .223 Match 75gr
Fiocchi Exacta Match 77gr Sierra MatchKing
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Whats your turn on that barrel?
Has to be 1:7. His best group was the 77 gr Fiocchi.
Nice shooting.
Thats what I figured.
Someone please inform this guy. I’m too tired to waste 30 minutes typing up another post explaining stupidly basic skillsets (like aiming) that should be a prerequisite before posting on this forum.
What’s ridiculous is this post, especially since I can tell that you haven’t read the information that two other members have cited specifically for you by the nature of all of your subsequent posts, except for the very last one, which is largely unrelated.
There’s plenty of wives’ tales in the world already without buying into some long-ago halfwit’s poor visualization and math skills and keep humping “plus-MOA reticle means plus-MOA groups” leg. It’s bullshit, for the reasons cited in the material you been pointed to but haven’t bothered to read.
You wanna tell Molon to his face that his work isn’t verifiable, when he bends over backwards IOT produce tranparency of work, not to mention all the other folks out there that do the same?
That’s a lot of stand-up people that you just called liars, with that statement, and I won’t stand for it.
Stop posting in this thread until you have read the cited material and done your own search. There will be an oral quiz tomorrow and a written test on Friday.
Get yourself a leadsled or something similiar and you will really see how much is your inaccuracy and how much is the rifle. IMO the accuracy you should expect depends on the build of the rifle as well as its’ intended use. However the build should be based on the intended use so the two are really the same in a perfect world.
The group also would be determined by the manner in which you are shooting obviously once you take it off the lead sled. Ammo matters too, obviously match ammo would hold better groups, but seriously I wouldn’t waste the money on match ammo with a 16" carbine at 100 yards (just my personal opinion primarily based on my bank account). What’s more important about the ammo though, the ammo weight should be matched to the barrel rate of twist.
Lastly it would also depend on your own personal level of “good enough”. Personally for me, if I can hold a 3" 3 shot group at 100 yards while bench shooting using bags or bipod with iron sights on a 16" carbine I am more than happy. For me this would mean I have successfully hit my intended target.
Have you considered an Appleseed shoot?
I’m kinda new to shooting to take this with a grain of salt. But I’ve tried to do what The LAV has his students teach at his carbine coarse. Thats try to keep everything in a 6 inch circle. So i start at 25 and when i can get them in that circle at 25 in every position i go back to 50 and so on and so forth. Remember time is precious. Don’t waste it by thinking you need to get sub moa groups at 100 yards from the onset. And when you get all of them in that 6 inches out to 100 or 200. Start over with smaller and smaller circles. Eventually you’ll be shooting circles around those guys at the range that only bench shoot with scopes, using only your RDS:laugh:
hmmm so I guess if I say I can accurately engage 300 meters targets with an unmagnified eotech all day long that would be impossible too cause that’s not what the optic was designed for, and I myself would be a liar. Sorry brother, you may wanna do some research before you start talking $hit about peoples shooting abilities and result findings. I know it was stated before, but I’ll say it again Molon has plenty of evidence proving all that was said is in fact possible. Anyway, that’s just my .02
I am new to shooting AR but in prone position with bipod support I was hitting a 8" steel circle at 300 yds consistently with 55 gr 5.56 ammo,optics are important I used a 3x magnifier with Eotech XPS2-2 red dot…I shoot a SS Noveske 14.5 Afghan I was impressed with how accurate the rifle was!! Lots of fun!!!
Best advice I can give is based on real world experience on my part. also based on my mistakes of the past and is simple in concept and fairly easy in execution.
4 MOA from a field position. get off the bench entirely. learn to shoot properly. when you get good enough you WILL start to notice ammo and gun limitations, but most shooters are not even that capable.
4 MOA is a practical,and useful accuracy because it include shooter error and platform error. it’s significant because it means that if you can shoot at least 4 MOA then you can hit a standing man at 500 yards or a head shot at 200. anything under that should be easier once you can do this level of accuracy.
Rifle by itself should be capable of about 2.5 MOA or less, but that is not the limiting factor… you as the shooter will almost always be that limit.
I am a very new shooter. However, the advice of my much more experienced friend reminded me, when we had this exact conversation, that consistency of sight picture is key when you are shooting for groups. To that end, his trick for “precision” shooting (when benched) using a RDS or other non/low-magnified “combat” type optic is to use the edge of the dot for aiming.
In fact… if you read a bit on trajectory of the XM193, you can set up the Improved BattleSight Zero such that the drop out at 100yds (as an example) works itself out to approx 2" of drop… convenient when you have, say, a 2 or 4 MOA dot…
This isn’t unlike some of the tricks to using the ACOG chevron reticle to your advantage.
Food for thought anyhow… I’m sure actually pulling this type of precision shooting will require more technique than I’ve got currently, and that ain’t no joke. :sarcastic:
It definitely gives me pause though to what can be overcome with the proper setup and use of the tools at hand.
Comments are welcome though… please enlighten me! 
2 or 3 MOA at 100 meters is plenty good.
^^ This! Draw a 3 inch circle on your chest/head…would you want to be hit where that circle covers?
I dont really understand all the “MOA” talk. We arent speaking of benchrest match guns. Yes its a measuring system, but to expect sub moa groups out of a semi auto carbine is a bit much. Ya it could/can/has happened, but its not a must have.