Hey guys,
I know neither of these scopes is out yet. But does anyone have serious idea of when these scopes are going to be out. I want to outfit my SCAR-17s with one of these options. The S&b seems like it has been cooking forever. What is the deal? I gather there are some issue with the reticle and dot co-witnessing across the entire range of magnification? What about the new Elcan? Has anybody seen it?
Yea I want to know as well!! I am sitting here waiting for both new S&B to come out. Money is burning a hole in my pocket for the 1-8 and 3-20. Come on S&B!!!
Greg, where did you learn about the issues with the S&B sight?
Also, has Elcan (Raytheon) fixed the zeroing, and mounting issues on the Spectre sights, yet? If they’ve fixed that… then the 1-3-9X looks like the ideal sight.
I gather there are some issue with the reticle and dot co-witnessing across the entire range of magnification?
I think this is all speculation repeated across forums and Shot show reviews.
I had also read that the the S&B is delayed (at least at the retail side) until October due to parts availability.
Bottom line is neither one of these scopes is out yet.
The Elcan is still in development, the S&B has suffered numerous delays.
…If the price if better, or it offers superior capability I might wait for the Elcan.
However… S&B has a good reputation and 9X isn’t needed for 600m shots.
Elcan’s reputation is no where near Schmidt & Benders.
At that price point, I would go S&B any day of the week.
Talked to S&B Germany yesterday. They should be out in September.
Same people who said it would be out in August 2010.
Elcan has a shotty record.
SB has a near pefect record.
Plus I have owned 3 SB optics so my personal experience says to wait for the SB. I just sold my 1-4X SB to a moderator here which was my second short-dot. Since they are both not out, which was the info you are looking for, based on all my research and personal experience I would go with a blind taste test of the SB much before the Elcan. There have been numerous documented complaints with elcan optics shifting zero and other issues. Ive been online in forums for 2 decades now and can count on one hand the number of SB complaints. They will not release a scope until its ready. Yeah it sucks to wait but Id rather wait than get a sub par optic they fix 2 years later, and Im stuck selling a known sub par optic I paid 2k for that I can only sell for 1k now. I bought my Short-Dot through SB USA on their program and paid less than 2k for it. 2 years of use and I sold it for a couple hundred less than I paid. SB retains value…
+1.
The Elcan is an amazing optic on paper. There is WAY too many bad stories out there for me to tie up $1800 in it.
Like Belmont and BP have said, at that price you’re comparing a company with an immaculate record for quality and performance to a company with a less than impressive performance and a reputation for optics that can’t hold zero worth a damn.
For that much money, it seems completely unreasonable and illogic to me to take the gamble on the company that just can’t seem to get things right.
It looks nifty on paper, but the product is being executed by a company that just doesn’t seem to be capable of doing it or knowing what they’re doing to begin with.
I still cannot understand why Elcan ever thought external/mount adjustments on an optic was ever a good idea, or why they decided to keep it on the SpectreDRs when it was a known failure point.
Not to mention the fact that they decided to pair a ~$2000 optic with a low quality mount from a low quality company like ARMS. :suicide:
I won’t say that a company can’t turn their business around and make a come back with a good product, but once again when you’re spending this much money it’s not worth the gamble, at least not to me.
The newer Specters don’t have as much bad mojo around them, but that’s a shitload of overtime to buy one. Too much of a leap of faith for me.
ARMS mounts used to be THE mount to get. Much better choices now.
Bobro, Larue and ADM really are the ways to go now. Just pick your flavor, all are high quality.
For what the Specter is, I think you can do the same with a T-1 and a magnifier, and have more flexibility.
Trijicon allegedly has an update to the Accupoint in the works. With how impressed I was with the TR24 for the money spent, that’s something I may be looking at. For urban environments it really needs some type of LED illumination IMO, but this isn’t a concern for everyone.
The T1 even with a magnifier is not a long range optic. You will be able to shoot well to about 300 yards but the reticle is still a 4 moa dot with no hold over marks and no way to dial it in quickly. Also as a previous owner of the T1 (currently own 3 R1’s) the clarity of looking through a T1 with a Aimpoint magnifier is no where near as good as a Elcan or simular quality optic. Not that the T1 with a magnifier does not have its place but its not as versatile.
Pat
I disagree. With the T-1 & magnifier combo, you can remove the magnifier when it’s use, or readiness to be used, isn’t as important of a consideration. Then you have an optic with a tremendous battery life which weighs 6oz. That is a level of versatility that the vari solutions can’t come close to. There is a clarity and field of view tradeoff going from magnifiers to varis.
For most users, shots past 300 in a tactical use are a pipe dream.
If the problems with the Elcan were all ironed out, my one big gripe is that it doesn’t have diopter correction. Of course, neither does the Aimpoint magnifier. The Elcan loses any type of tactical or target turrets, and the only thing it brings over the T-1/magnifier is a BDC reticle which, for the vast majority of shooters, won’t match your setup.
I would also argue that the Elcan isn’t a “long range” optic per se.
Sounds like you got it all figured out. Can you teach us?
What 1-4X type of optics do you have experience with? Not cheap China knockoffs either. mainline European brands only who introduced this scope combination to the tactical market in the 2005 time frame?
In a blind leap of faith, no question. S&B every time.
I am having a hard time warmin up to Elcan.
They burned me in the past.
But hey, so did EoTech and I have an EXPS now, so if Elcan can show that they have grown past ARMS, zero-shift, battery life, weight, and robustness issues, maybe they will be viable.
Is that all 
A S&B 1-8, an Elcan1x3x9=27, a Premier 1-8 and a Leupold CQBSS- which one wins? The Leupold-Because the other three are figments of your fucking imagination!
Sorry, had to channel some Chasing Amy.
I think Belmont has done a good job of discussing the optical issues with these high mag range scopes. Just because you can do a 1-10 range, there is no optical fairy that is re-writing the laws of physics and optics. I have oodles of more time behind camera optics than shooting optics and there are no free lunches.
While not a great long range optic, IIRC UVvis here won one of the 25-400 yard rifle matches at Pueblo with a SBR and a T-1, with out a magnifier. Ah, young eyes.
I’m getting pretty sick of your pissy little swipes at me. I am entitled to my opinions as much as the next man on this forum. I presented my view as I see it, and was not disrespectful or acting like a tool while doing it. I don’t get butt hurt becasuse someone has a different view from me.
I also think you took my post wrong. I like the variable power scopes better than the Aimpoint/magnifier combination, just not in the case of the Elcan.
By far the S&B 1-8x meets all my needs/wants on paper, but it isn’t in production. The ONLY downside I can see to it is weight/size and to a degree cost. But the latter is to be expected.
I’m also waiting to see what our policy is going to be for personally owned rifles.
I have owned & used the following optics over the years;
Leatherwood CMR 1-4x (trying out 1-4x’s) ADM Mount
Trijicon TR24G ADM Mount
Eotech EXPS w/ Eotech Magnifier
Leupold Mark IV 1.5-5x CMR2 M2 Larue 1.93 SPR Mount
Aimpoint M2 w/ Aimpoint Magnifier in Larue Mount
I have trigger time with a few more, and I like the S&Bs better than everything I’ve owned. I’m just trying to decide on which model I want.
In referencing Elcan Specter DR’s, many posters state that it is very heavy.
The Specter DR 1x4 (with mount) is 640 grams or 22.58 ounces. In comparision, a Trijicon TR24 is 14.4 ounces. Add an ADM Recon-X mount at 8.4 ounces and the total is 22.8 ounces. Compared to other scope/mount offerings, the Specter DR is very much in line.
In evaluating 3rd generation Elcan Specter DR’s I’ve recently seen at the range, Elcan seems to have addressed the POI shift when switching magnification. Yes, it still has a ARMS mount…