A while back I wrote up an article on this topic, specifit PID (positive identification) which is a very real world consideration.
http://www.vdmsr.com/2016/06/optics-reticles-pid-vs-distance.html
I’d rather have the ability to PID and make shots at distance instead of waiting until I can PID via non-magnifcation and have a closer engagement distance.
Does anyone have any long term use with the Leupold Patrol 1.25x4? Although I’ve had mine for a year or so and quite honestly, I haven’t had the funds/time to really to really wring it out.
Just wanted to know if there is anything I should look out for.
I LOVE the clarity and weight. And its daylight bright firedot with auto on. Don’t really care for the exposed dials and the minimum 1.25 magnification. But I wanted something to get my foot in the door of LPVO and will work with my astigmatism.
I know its older design. Just looking for someone with any experience regarding its durability.
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Great read. I’ve been debating on keeping my Leupold Patrol on my AR pistol and the article is swaying me keep it on there. Thanks for the work!
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I need convincing too.
Full disclosure: I had been bitten by the LPVO bug for a time, too. I developed glaucoma and now the eye that I was using for shooting can’t see well enough to use an LPVO. Since I had to switch to the other eye, I just don’t seem to be able to line things up properly and quickly enough to make it a viable optic for anything but slow precise long-range shots.
I much prefer a red dot or reflex sight now.
I went to the range with my Leupold one day using my one good eye, and couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. Point being: it’s going to require lots of ammo and practice for me to use a LPVO now. I took to the Meprolight reflex sight immediately with my remaining good eye.
I realize I’m a special case but it illustrated to me how under stress one might not be able to use a LPVO quickly enough without lots of practice.
I just don’t have the time to devote to “gettting good with it.” I can use the Meprolight with my off eye RIGHT NOW.
I’m not a fan of the LPVO on any platform. I think Pappabear has ONE on a gun that I don’t completely hate. But I’d never buy or run one.
Something with that low of power, but that much bulk on top of the gun just doesn’t work for me. No hate if it works for other guys… just zero appeal to me.
I fully and completely disagree with that statement. I’m not sure if you are LE or not but SWAT is rarely an option and the response time is usually measured in an hour to two not minutes. And you do realize the distances an urban patrol officer has to deal with still correct? Ever been in a Walmart or a distibution warehouse? You are easily talking about 100/200/300 yard distances easily and their are TONS of scenarios where a regular beat officer could have to make a confrontation at that distance when their is not time to wait for SWAT to be deployed or even at much shorter distances where having the ability to take a precise shot is necessary.
If there’s a threat at 2 or 3 hunnit, It would likely be an “active shooter” where a patrol guy could easily identify the situation. That said, any rifleman worth his ass can make that shot with irons or an RDS.
Pappabear and I shot next to a SWAT sniper team last summer. Not one round was fired outside of 100M. Overhearing their conversations lead me to learn that they are very concerned about POI of specific ammo lots out of their guns, and the ability/confidence they’d have taking a head shot, etc. at real world 50-100M distances.
(just my opinions from shooting long range, and watching the PD swat do their thing)
I live on a ranch with plenty of opportunities to see potential threats at 300+ yards. The thing is, I’m not sure at that distance I could determine definitively if someone is a threat of immediate bodily harm or just “a lost hunter”. Granted, on the two-way range in a war or something one would almost assume a distant individual is a threat–but that’s not due to the utility of the optic but the ongoing tactical situation no matter what optic is employed.
For sure it would most likely be an active shooter. I’m not saying you can’t make that shot with a RDS or irons but if you can make that shot more precise thanks to a LPVO why would you not? Same thing with taking a shorter distance, say 50 yards, hostage shot on demand. Can you do it with a RDS? Sure, but if I want that shot to be as precise as possible and crank my LPVO up to 2-3x where as with other options I only have fixed magnification options I want to be able to do that.
What about a rolling domestic where the suspect has a gun and the vehicle is seen stopping in Aisle X of the local Walmart parking lot? You can clear down the aisle with the rifle on 1x and zoom it as you get closer to cover the vehicle or take the shot as necessary.
Personally, I’d rather have the options of being able to zoom. At least with the LPVO the weight is centered where as the weight with a flip up magnifier is off to the side which I find awkward. Also, the whole I keep my magnifier in my kit thing I’ve heard is stupid, where is that kit with the magnifier at when you grab your rifle and go? Not with the rifle.
I don’t have much time behind the Leupold 1.25x4x Patrol, but I have been using Leupold scopes for decades. Generally, Leupold offers the best balance of weight, ruggedness, optical clarity and price of any scope I’ve looked at. I compared the 1.25-4x to other LPVs and I feel it’s the best value, especially in it’s price range. One thing I really like about the Patrol is it’s optical clarity and that the field of view fills the ocular lens better than anything else. That is, the circular “frame” around the picture you see in the scope is much thinner than most of the other brands.
I had concerns that the 1.25x would be too much of a handicap at in-your-face ranges, but so far, that hasn’t been the case. Maybe not quite as fast as an RDS inside say, ten yards. But it’s easier and faster than iron sights. Keep in mind that I’ve only had the scope a couple of months and am still running it through the wringer. So far, I’m impressed, especially since I got the scope and Leupold mount for just a little over $500. I really like that the dot turns itself off to preserve the battery, but comes on at the slightest touch.
I haven’t any worries about the ruggedness of the Patrol. I don’t think it would survive the torture Larry Vickers put the Aimpoint mounted the DD carbine through. But my Leupolds have survived decades of riding around in a Jeep in the backcountry, falling down mountains, hot deserts, winter hunts, rain, snow and several household moves without losing zero, fogging, denting or loss of optical clarity. I think your Patrol will serve you well.
As you’re saying, this is the beauty of an LPVO. Its there if you want it unlike an ACOG, if not most of the quality ones have very fast performance at 1x. The only downsides to them are weight and cost.
I don’t disagree. But to me, that length of a shot for patrol is the exception. The increased bulk of the LVPO is just not worth the rare scenario to me.
Thanks!
I traded a Aimpoint Pro for the Patrol because I just couldnt get pass my astigmatism, with or without my Rx lenses. I love the awesome eye relief at the low end. And I agree with you that at 10 yds or less it can be slower than a red dot. Anything past that I really don’t feel I’m at a disadvantage.
I mounted it a Midwest Industries QD mount and hoping to see if it will survive my not so gentle range sessions and future carbine classes.
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Agreed they are heavier and they do cost significantly more. If the gun is only going to be used at HD distances the juice isn’t worth the squeeze. If you have the potential for anything longer I think it is. YMMV.
Sure its rare, its rare most places to draw your patrol rifle to begin with. But if we weren’t talking rarities we would be carrying the rifle every time we got out of the squad to begin with.
Quality LPVOs usually make you end up about $1-2k after mount and how quality you want to go and you are at about 25-30oz all together I’d wager. An Aimpoint plus a magnifier/mount gets you into the $1k ballpark as well with a mixed magnification and an awkward flip to side mount. An Aimpoint Pro is 11.6oz, the 3x magnifier is another 7.1oz plus whatever mount you get. Putting you already 2/3 of the way to the weight of a quality LPVO and mount. I’m not saying the LPVO is perfect for every gun owner but IMO it checks a lot more boxes for a rifle if you ever plan on taking it outside the home distances.
I don’t disagree with any of your post… I still, however, don’t have love for LPVOs.
Could is a pretty powerful word.
I am just a civilian amd I don’t have access to statistics showing engagement distances, but I would be shocked if more than a handful of officers ever engaged a suspect at more than 50 yards.
My brother is a Deputy in a very rural county and his HK 416 wears an AP Pro.
Andy
Not unthinkable, but indeed… exceedingly rare. They make TV documentaries out of those kind of good guy saves.
Yes the average engagement distance is within 7 yards. But hey if were only going to train for the average stuff LE probably shouldn’t practice firearms at all right since something like only 0.3% of officers in the country will get into a shooting during their career? Or maybe everything we do should be 7 shots in 7 seconds at 7 yards or whatever the exact average is. We probably shouldn’t carry a rifle either since MOST cops will never use it. If you only train and prepare for the average you are shortcoming yourself when you get into a situation that isn’t the average and the same goes for equipment. I’m not saying you can’t get away with using an aimpoint for a LE rifle by any means. Mine still rocks a PRO until my Razor gets here for it, but that doesn’t mean their aren’t better options IMO.
I’ve been a long-time user of the Aimpoint Comp and T-series RDS. As I grow older, my eyesight is also getting worse, and target identification becomes an issue. Even discerning a small bullseye at 50 yards is more difficult than it used to be. Combined with my astigmatism, trying out a LPVO made sense. My Steiner P4Xi cost less with mount than my T1’s and has a diopter adjustment to sharpen the image. A bit slower at distances under 25 yards, but much more versatile out to 300 yds than an unmagnified RDS. Again, if I have trouble seeing the target, I have trouble aiming at it and hitting it. The LPVO helps me see the target better, and that translates to better hits. If I have to pick ONE optic for a ‘do it all’ AR, it’d have a LPVO on it.
If i could only have 1 AR, it would absolutely have a LPVO. The ability to have a red dot like reticle up close, and also be able to crank it up to higher power for positive ID or precision shots at distance, is awesome. Making headshots on a hostage target at 100 yards with an LPVO is cake compared to a red dot.
I’ve been a red dot guy for a long time, and still have them on a few guns, like my home defense rifle, by my truck gun and go-to 16" AR now sports a 1-8, and I don’t forsee going back any time soon.