You know, the Nightforces, the Razors, etc. I can see it on a dedicated long-range gun but on an M4-ish platform? Isn’t there already the ACOG?
My personal favorite reticle is the EOTech, but given the DoD shenanigans from a few years back, the shifting POI (my biggest grievance), and the battery life I have adorned my AR’s with Aimpoint T-1’s or T-2’s. Two ACOGs also.
Look, not throwing stones, genuinely want to know the interest in the LPVO. I have never shot a weapon with one on it, and a more “traditional” looking optic than a RDS just asks to be bumped out of zero (thinking of a hunting rifle and if it’s bumped/dropped you’re SOL on the zero). They are also large and I suspect heavier than a RDS or even an ACOG.
My biggest fear? This thread will cause me to spend $$$. :rolleyes:
I was a bit skeptical but decided to give it a try since my astigmatism gives me a squiggly line instead of a dot with Aimpoints. Im sold on them.
Note… Im basing this off of a Steiner P4Xi as that’s what Ive been using on my work rifle.
On 1 power it’s almost as fast as an Aimpoint. The eye box is very forgiving and I havent had issues with getting a good sight picture even running it on barricades, through ports, and under vehicles. The increased magnification helps on everything past about 30 yards. From 30-75ish yards I keep the scope on 2-2.5 power. Eye box is still very forgiving and the slight magnification gives me a little finer aiming point. At 100 yards and above the 4 power works really well, just like an ACOG.
Durability depends on the quality of the optic. Just like cheap red dots don’t hold up the same as an Aimpoint. My Steiner hasn’t lost zero riding around in the back of my patrol vehicle for about a year now. Its gone through 20+ hours of training which included barricade work, vehicle work, and running and gunning.
You have to try it for yourself. ACOG is a quality optic but it’s fixed magnification. Also consider the crosshairs reticle combined with a red dot in the middle. As an eotech shooter I wasn’t sure. But then I tried it. I’m thinking of dumping Eotech entirely and going LPVO.
I took my P4xi out to the range and burned down some up close stuff hen walked back to distance and was making shots standing that I might have had to go at least kneeling to hit.
I have a vx-r patrol 1.25-4.
Is it as robust as an aimpoint or acog, probably not.
At 1.25x i have a fast sight. Almost rds fast. I can also zoom in for hunting (which is more likely than HD) or target ID.
Past that I dont know. If you have the money, khales looks good, but a lot of the “reasonable” options (vortex 1-6) are pigs. I need to get hands on, but on paper, you can have a 2.5-10 and rds for the same weight. 1-4 is good, 1-6 I cant justify the weight, but again- based on specs only.
A vortex 1-6 is 24oz. My optic is half that.
For lpvo
Good up close eye box
Good long range clarity/reticle
Light weight
Cost
Pick 2, maybe 3 depending on optic.
Best thing to do is define your situation and let people offer advice.
Fixed power optics like the ACOG are obsolescent. Good LPVOs give you 90-95% the capability of a RDS while giving you better a magnified sight picture than an ACOG.
LPVO = a slightly less forgiving RDS + low magnification scope
This has mostly been said but I also was very hesitant to try the LPVO game, it seemed like a lot of money, lot of extra weight, and little gain. I tried a magnified on my buddies rifle and downright hated it. I purchased a Steiner p4xi as a budget way of seeing if this would be for me and it was a huge change. Now let me say that my Steiner broke relatively early into my testing with it, approximately 400 rounds, which is a thread and a complaint all its own but it did what I needed it to do which was confirm this would work for me and work well. So much so that I have a Razor-E arriving here on Monday. My optic now costs as much as my base AR did but its well worth it and I plan on buying at least one if not two more LPVOs for my other rifles.
The advantages are that with the quality LPVOs you get the advantages of running an Aimpoint with a bright center dot in daylight bright, super quick and easy to pick up. You get the advantages of being able to magnify at intervals instead of the Elcan type of going straight to 1 or 6. You have the ability to still use the etched reticle if the batteries die on you without issue. This allows you to be fast up close and fast at distance while maintaining the ability to be very accurate at distance, especially if braced or prone, it also allows you to be able to PID if you aren’t just using your rifle for target shooting.
The negatives are as before weight and price for quality. Your Strike Eagles and the like are your Holosuns of the LPVO world. Steiner P4xi is really the only “cheap” option and its cheap because it gives up some durability, which I have observed first hand. The weight while kind of a pain also helps maintain recoil I’ve noticed. The other negative is shorter battery life. If you plan on leaving it on everyday all day for months without touching it then you’re going to find a dead dot when you go to grab it. Also, due to the weight and if you run a high mount which is also my by far new preference for optics of any kind the weight can make running a barricade or odd positions a little more difficult but still not impossible.
If you are on the fence grab a P4xi and give it a try. If you don’t like it they maintain enough interest you can flip it very easily after you are done, but give it a couple hundred rounds of going between up/downs, close to far, etc to wring out the concept for you. I doubt you will be disappointed.
They have the same appeal as a red dot with a flip magnifier. In fact, the first that I used had a lever that gave you the choice of 1x or 4x, with nothing between, just like a flip magnifier.
The P4Xi has a very friendly BDC, much like the ACOG. The hashmarks get narrower with range, so the same hashmark you use for range estimation is also the one you aim with. And if the dot dies, perhaps because the battery is done, you still have a reticle.
RDS are still top dog for close range work. They are lighter and not a jack of all trades. Another option is an ACOG with a mini red dot on top, or an offset RDS.
It’s a pretty simple logic…you combine the fast sighting properties of a 1x system with the longer range capabilities of a 4-6x system as opposed to only having one or the orther with something like a red dot or an ACOG.
/threadjack/
Other than the specific scope Defoor references there, do any other manufacturers have a combo FFP reticle/SFP red dot? Seems like an outstanding idea to me.
/threadjack/
Other than the specific scope Defoor references there, do any other manufacturers have a combo FFP reticle/SFP red dot? Seems like an outstanding idea to me.
I don’t think there is a “fascination”. I’ve been using them since 2006. They fill a role many need filled. My decisions to use them for the majority of my shooting include astigmatism, being able to shoot targets at extended ranges, and the ability to make ballistic compensations. Meanwhile, it maintains a more forgiving eye box than an ACOG as well as having the ability to be fired on 1x when the need arises.
While a RDS is lighter, the LPVO is lighter and easier to operate than a RDS with a magnifier. Additionally, it’s a more precise sighting system. It requires one mount as opposed to two, and it is a single cost.
Compared to the ACOG, as mentioned before, it is more forgiving and more flexible.
Downsides are weight when compared to an ACOG or RDS w/o magnifier.
For a gun used primarily indoors, I use, and will continue to use, a RDS. For guns that do everything, they will get a variable. I’ve managed shots from point blank to 700 yards with my 14.5” carbine equipped with a Razor.
On dual focal plane: anytime you intended to use the reticle, you will be on 6x with the Razor. Below 6x, the FFP scopes’ reticles are difficult to use. I believe US Optics made a dual focal plane and it didn’t work out as well as intended. I could see it being an advantage if you were using a busy reticle and perhaps had a top end in the 8x or greater range…but right now the juice isn’t worth the squeeze especially with a simple reticle like the Razor HD.
I can see that LPVOs definitely add capability to a general purpose carbine (hunting, gaming, target shooting). They also add weight and cost compared to a quality affordable RDS like an AP Pro or MRO.
I don’t think they are superior for an urban police officer or home defense. With the exception of SWAT, police officers don’t engage at 300 yards and God help the home defender who pops a criminal at that range.
My “fascination” came as a result of ballistics testing. I had 35 acres in the woods, and I would line up milk jugs full of water, as they gave similar results in my experience to soft skin game (deer) regarding recovered .224 dia projectiles at 5.56 carbine velocity.
At 25 and 50 and 75 yards even, this was fine, but once I stretched it to 100+ yards, I began “wounding” a lot of milk jug “stacks”, losing bullets, and in general having a frustrating time. It was then that I began to understand the value of even 3x magnification. I put a g33 behind my t2, and began centering those jugs.
Now, I know you may not be hunting milk jugs, but that’s not the point, the point is that at a mere 100 yards, cleanly hitting COM a 7" or so wide target of contrasting color was difficult for me from the standing, braced against a tree, even with 20/10 vision. Magnification made it a piece of cake.
From that g33/t2 onward, I went as far down the rabbit hole as I could trying to have my 1x cake as well as to eat my 100+ yard precision as I could, in as streamlined a form factor as possible.
Currently, I’m awaiting the purchase of an NX8. I will get similar size and weight to a t2 in a scalarworks backed by a g33…along with an etched reticle, drop and wind holds, and another nearly 5x magnification.
