Cookoff: I had that happen right next to me one time. If the operator exceeds the safe cyclic rate of the weapon listed, which is listed in the owner’s manual for that weapon. That is operator negligence, for not staying within the safe operating limits of that weapon system. N.D.
Lanyard in the triggerguard: Keep your kit squared away. That should not happen. Many weapons have a hole, or a loop to attach a lanyard. They should not fire when utilizing a lanyard, a feature that the weapon is designed to be use with. N.D.
Slamfire: That is interesting. I would like to hear what the other guys have to say about that one.
I would say that is most likely caused by poor maintenance from the operator due to dirt, carbon build up, or grease in the firing pin channel; also can be caused by dropping the weapon, using crappy sub standard ammo. Sounds like human error to me, for not properly cleaning, or maintaining the weapon, dropping it, or using cheap ammo a choice of the operator. N.D.
C4IGrant had a cookoff one time and from what I understand he was nowhere near exceeding any parameters on the gun. If he hadn’t been exercising proper muzzle awareness somone could have been killed.
I think it is rather simple. If the weapon discharges due to no fault of your own, i.e. a malfunction of the weapon or ammunition then it is an accidental discharge.
If a weapon discharges due to an operator error, i.e. failed to clear weapon properly, improper use of said weapon, etc… then it is negligent because you could have prevented it from occuring. YEMV.
Although I was not there, and neither were you, that sounds like an A.D.?
The instance I referenced and witnessed, was clearly operator error, as the safe “Rate of Fire” (45 rds. per minute) for the weapon listed on P. 2 of Bushmaster’s Operating Manual was grossly exceeded, resulting in an N.D… The round went right in between the guys two feet. 2-3" in either direction he would have been hit in the foot. I was standing less than 3’ from the muzzle, and almost soiled my draws. As you said, muzzle discipline is key. There is also something to be said for training with the appropriate level of body armor on, as insurance.
I have seen cook offs happen with carbines and rifles. Cyclic rate, schmylic rate. There may be times when it is a necessity and one cannot rule out an ammunition malfunction. If you have access to the military NAR system you can see just how much ammunition and ordnance gets reclassed due to failures to cookoff, premature detonation, live rounds being packed into the wrong container types, etc…
Browning .50’s are closed bolt weapons and can heat up rather quick, especially over here.
A lanyard getting into the triggerguard falls into Murphys Law. IIRC, the Navy requires all personnel (with exception of SEAL’s) to have lanyards attached to their pistols. It’s easy to keep kit squared away on the one way range, not always when the SHTF.
Indeed - dynamic training with firearms is inherently dangerous. Trigger and muzzle discipline are key. Even so, an AD can happen to even a super switched-on guy, just as pieces parts will occasionally be flagged by muzzles. This is another topic that some freak out over.
Pretty solid summary, except that NDs are a subset of ADs.
Accidental and unintentional are synonyms. If the gun fired when you didn’t intend it to, it’s an AD. Most accidents are due to negligence (e.g. one of the 4 rules has been violated), and thus most ADs are NDs. For these cases, I prefer the term ND as is stresses that negligence was the cause (and that is was preventable by following the rules).
ADs that are not NDs are largely represented, as you mentioned, by mechanical or ammo failure. As a kid, I had a .22 rifle (owned by the rifle club) fire when I lowered the bolt on a loaded chamber. This was an AD, as the cause was found to be a worn sear (subsequently replaced).
I agree, but add to the ND category: negligence in manipulation, such as firing a round when unloading requires the user to pull the trigger when the weapon is supposed to have been ensured to be unloaded.
I also consider failure to follow directions related to safety to be an ND, such as cranking off a round during a “dry” drill or prior to the indication to shoot, if the shooter is being negligent (potentially dangerous) in his actions through complacency or apathy.
Negligent would indicate that student did not intend for a live round to be fired at an intended target. When in fact, he did. It was a dry fire drill, but as the instructor was going back and forth between live fire to dry fire drills, instructions were difficult to hear.
No one was down range
The safety was dis-engaged on purpose (1911 platform)
He had an intended target
He pulled the trigger with intent
Where is the “ND”? How do I know, I was THERE and it was ME…so: :rolleyes:
Raises B.S. flag
I was treating my carbine as if it was loaded.
I was willing to shoot the steel target downrange.
My sights were on target and I was ready to shoot (press the trigger).
I knew my target and my backstop.
So I didn’t violate any of the Four Rules, so I didn’t consider it an AD/ND.
…Katar: Exact same circumstances with me. Olav is telling half the story…typical…
Negligent would indicate that student did not intend for a live round to be fired at an intended target. When in fact, he did. It was a dry fire drill, but as the instructor was going back and forth between live fire to dry fire drills, instructions were difficult to hear.
I guess I’m odd man out. I’ve always found the differentiation between accidental and negligent to be silly. I call them all ADs. Certainly some are more negligent than others, but a traffic accident caused by someone’s negligence is still a traffic accident and not a “traffic negligent” last I knew. :rolleyes:
I always thought that the term “accidental” was replaced with “negligent” to drive home the fact that (outside of mechanical failure as mentioned above), someone acted incorrectly to cause the situation. It didn’t just “happen” like you always read in the newspaper whenever somebody shoots their friend in the throat. You know “there I was, cleaning my gun, and it JUST WENT OFF right in billyjoebob’s throat”. Hmmmm. No.
I still use the terms interchangeably though. I learned it as “accidental discharge” so that’s what I revert to a lot.
The change from AD to ND among the popular shooting community came with a sense of self-righteous indignation from those who never had an AD (or pretended they never did) toward anyone who ever made a mistake. Every time I’ve had someone “correct” my use of the term “AD” by saying, “No, that was a negligent discharge,” it was someone who clearly wanted to let the world know he was above ever making human error.
I’ve had an AD. Happened on the range 2-3 years back. I was practicing drills at the NRA and simultaneously had the thoughts “reload the gun” and “clear the gun” go through my little brain. Before I holstered the cleared-with-ammo-in-it gun I pulled the trigger and sent a round into the backstop. No one else would ever have known it wasn’t an intentional shot but my blood pressure spiked for sure.
Quite a few famous instructors and competitors have had ADs, some more serious than others. The more time you spend with a loaded gun in your hand, the more likely you are to have a gun in your hand during a brain fart. Doesn’t make it right, of course, but most folks would do well to look upon those instances as “there but for the Grace of God go I,” rather than finger pointing.
