I’m about to start a couple write-ups on match grade AR barrels. I’m looking for a consensus of what group sizes people expect when they purchase a precision AR barrel.
If I can get a consistent, repeatable 1.5 MOA or better, I’m happy. .5 MOA one-off groups aren’t nearly as impressive to me.
I expect 2/3 MOA out to 500y with a shift toward 1 MOA out to 800y.
This is going to be an interesting thread. I predict some issues you’ll run into are that:
A) Most shooters rarely shoot beyond 100y
B) “Precision” barrels vary wildly. Some will say an off brand 16” SS barrel is “precision”. Is that really on the same level as a hand lapped 20”?
C) Most gun owners suck at shooting so they lie about group sizes.
D) A gun that consistently shoots 0.5 MOA at 100y with a cheap button cut “precision” barrel will not come close to that when increased SDs start making a difference at ranges beyond 300y.
Repeatable 10rd @ 100yd groups printing MOA.
Multiple, repeatable, and preferably 10rd groups are the definitive real world method of evaluating a barrel imho.
With the right load and a good barrel (like a Lothar Walther or Bartlein): .5-.6moa 5x5 at 100y from bipod and rear bag.
“Most gun owners suck at shooting so they lie about group sizes”
Maybe not lie… They just shoot 200 3 shot groups and cherry pick the one that looks the best! For the record I once shot a .25 MOA group one shot group in a hurricane. Do I get a prize??
It should be able to knock a tick of the ass of grizzly bear without pissing it off.
https://www.oldewoodltd.com/blog/old-tick-licker
Yeah its going to be interesting. The term precision is so subjective and the standards for what shooters consider acceptable vary widely. I’m looking forward to what different people consider acceptable and then test a bunch of barrels I have available and see how things shake out.
1/2 minute out to 300 yards and 1 minute at 600 yards. If an AR & good ammunition won’t give me that level of accuracy, it’s time to re-barrel the rifle or hang up my high power jacket.
I may go as far as working up a load for each barrel rather then random factory ammo. I figure each barrel has its own flavor and factory ammo wont necessarily do a particular barrel justice. All comes down to time I guess.
MOA is expected IMHO, even if its not a precision barrel. Most CL 16 or even 14.5 barrels should shoot MOA, its just crazy how good barrels are these days in my experience.
PB
I was just about to say the same thing, but I just don’t think the average shooter today has the skills to extract all the rifles can deliver myself included. I’ve seen what I can do with my stuff and then I’ve seen what my buddy a retired expert rifle/pistol Marine can do with it stuff you’d not believe unless you saw it especially considering the ammo I use.
It depends upon your game.
But you can get a whole lot done with 1 1/2MOA 10 shot groups.
^^^ QFT
And gas guns are just harder for a lot of folks to shoot well, compared to a bolt gun. The longer lock time can be pretty unforgiving of poor fundamentals and shooter errors.
Shooting is also a perishable skill. So if you don’t keep up on it regularly then it takes a little bit to get back to what your previous skill level was. I had a 2 month break a while back after shooting daily and noticed a slight decline. But then it all comes flooding back.
For factory ammo with a gas gun, I consider just under or at MOA to be accurate. For hand loads with a gas gun, I’d expect under or at 3/4 MOA.
Modern rifles are very well made for the most part. The limiting factor these days seems to be ammunition and shooter.
Oh for sure that’s true. I spend from April-October doing nothing but thermal hunting hogs and coyotes which is 99% offhand and much of that at runners after the first shot on hogs. Then mid-Oct-Feb it’s sitting in trees shooting semi-supported when I don’t practice offhand at all. Once spring turkey ends I’ll have to go through a couple of warm up hunts getting those offhand skills back in check . Having said that my retired Marine buddy can just flat out shoot better than me in any discipline. I think he could take a year off vs my best shooting frequency in the summer and he’d whip me no problemo!
IMHO, this thread is one of the best on M4C. Jack is a btdt guy and has inside industry knowledge.
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?170763-Let-s-Talk-About-quot-Accuracy-quot
This is a good place to start… Group size doesn’t mean much with huge poi shifts.
Lofty goal and I hope you do it, but if I were doing it … 2 things.
1 - I’d use a target analyzing software like OnTarget to measure the groups (see above)
2 - I’d record no less than 5 consecutive 10-round groups, or 3 or more from 1 session and add other sessions to prove the variability through multiple setups and conditions
Clearly this only show the ‘potential’ for precision, as you may not select the ‘ideal bullet’ for that barrel being tested (used VLD vs barrel liking a rounder ogive, for example), plus your reloading expertise and/or load development will be called into play … unless you used say Fed GMM and Black Hills of another weight/config too.
Such a test is getting expen$ive now … aren’t we?
Group size capability expectation from a “precision” barrel, all other things being equal?
10 shot group. 100 yds. .5 MOA.