So I went to trade a gun today and they guy wanted to record my drivers license number and my address before he would trade. I have noticed that a lot of Internet lawyers think that they somehow gain some sort of “protection” from doing this and advocate that everyone have some sort of receipt when doing a FTF sale.
I would love to know what extra protection you gain from this. I would also love to know why a private citizen thinks they have a right to collect my personal information and keep it on file just because they sold or traded an object. I leave less information at the Supermarket when I buy beer.
Come on Internet lawyers - let’s hear your best reasons for these stupid receipts.
I would agree to having a “Bill of Sale” where there is an item description listing S/N and generic info about the firearm. I would also consent to listing my full name and a signature but absolutely wouldn’t give my DL # or anything else of that nature.
I have never done a FTF gun purchase (always bought mine through an FFL) so I have no comments. Personally, I would not allow anyone to take my DL # or home address (YMMV).
With that said, I personally would never sell a gun without involving an FFL dealer (and have a 4473 run). Why? First, you have no idea if the person is a felon or has a restraining order against them. Next, imagine what the media would do to you if you were the guy that sold the gun to the VA Tech shooter (or some other active shooter/killer). How well would that work out for you and your family? Think you would be sued into oblivion? You betcha!
I would not buy from someone who wanted to record information like that. If they want to “see” a DL with a quick glance then that is one thing. Actually writing down personal info is another. I don’t know them personally and don’t know what they plan on doing with that information.
FTF is only illegal if you knowingly sell to a prohibited person. If you didn’t know they were, or they later use the gun in a crime there is nothing you did wrong per the law.
If someone wants to be “Safe” they should go through an FFL not surprise someone by whipping out a pen to take down private information.
I just check each others’ driver’s licenses for state of residence, ask if he/she is a felon or would be ineligible to purchase a firearm from an FFL apart from not being 21 for a pistol or pistol ammunition, exchange items for items and/or cash, then leave.
I refuse to deal with people who want copies of my driver’s license or anything beyond just looking at my ID and asking a simple question.
And I hate the people who get on local firearm sales listings and turn into grumpy bastards just because you tell them it’s completely legal for me to purchase a handgun from them FTF if we’re same state residents and I’m not 21.
Also I am sure many of you who have done FTF transactions have at one point or another failed to verify the residence of the buyer/seller. Really, who cares apart from the ATF? Still, just in case it’s a knowledgeable police officer or some government official, it’s best to make sure.
I have done a couple FTF transactions where I was the one selling the firearm and always asked for a valid CHL and Drivers License. I also wrote a bill of sale that included the serial number and the names and signatures of both of us. Both times the person had no issues with presenting the CHL and DL, but I would have never taken any personal information other then their name. I understand fully that there is a chance that I could still be had by a felon but I also think that by doing this the chances of it are very small. I am aware of how the law reads but adding a couple of hurdles in the FTF process will only add 5 minutes to the transaction and makes me feel better about it.
What qualifications do you possess that allow you to determine if the ID you were shown is valid? What systems do you use to verify the information? None? I thought so. So in Grant’s scenario, they are still going to rip you apart while you meekly repeat - but I saw his drivers license!
The law is quite clear - the burden is on the person buying, not selling, to be eligible to buy. You are not an FFL and not bound by those rules. ETA - as Belmont noted.
Me personally, I don’t care either, NV is no problem for FTF. Point of FTF buying a used weapon is to save money so who wants to give an FFL money? Got an NV ID? Yup. Got cash? Yup. Now you have a rifle. For pistols I would do the transfer at a cop shop so that the registration would be swapped over. In Clark County, Las Vegas, all pistols are required to be registered.
I am fully aware of that but it isn’t against the law to request these things either. If you don’t like what the seller is requesting then don’t buy the firearm.
I would consider showing a recent 4473, CHL, and a drivers license as the max, but I dont want info out there. Selling, I would want the gun out of my name with a 4473.
If I don’t know the person I usually ask for a copy of DL & CWP, and have a bill of sale on hand, and we both sign and get a copy. I also bring a copy of my DL & CWP and will hand it over if asked.
I have done with with selling over the internet in the past as well, although not the last few times mostly out of laziness.
I also make all of this clear in emails beforehand so that those that don’t like it can shop elsewhere. You don’t like my way of doing business, you don’t have to buy from me.
If you don’t feel completely comfortable selling to a stranger then go through a FFL. No amount of CHL showing or DL writing down is going to prevent you from selling to a potential prohibited person. The burden is on the BUYER not the seller.
Plausible deniability. Being lied to and doing something to which every indication to you that it’s legal -will not get you in trouble with the law the majority of the time. Show me a case of someone being charged with an illegal sale because the person they sold a firearm to lied about their eligibility to buy a firearm, showed a fake ID, and the seller had no way of knowing the truth.
Now please, refrain from using racial slurs such as “mick” and for once take an actual stance on the subject you created a thread about. You attack the person who tries to take down your information for a sale/trade but then you attack me for defending the absence of such receipt methods.
Thanks for the laugh.