You hear so many different answers to this… So a 338 lapua to shoot a ladder group what would be the proper distance? I’ve heard they don’t even stabilize until 300. Hey I heard it on the interweb so…
Dan
I believe that 100yrd sight in is always the start. Most scope/ballistic systems are set up for a 100 yrd zero. I hear all this talk about the Match Kings and Berger VLD not stabilizing like you said to 300 yrds. I have a real hard time understanding how a bullet wandering at 100yrds can suddenly get on track at longer distances. That seems to defy the laws of physics. Never have tested it though.
Now I really don’t like heavy recoiling guns. Don’t even shoot my .308 that much at the range. I think your shooting skills will develop better without the recoil. 6mm are light recoiling and win a lot of 1000 yd competition. Fun to shoot and I think better for proper shooting skill development.
Save the artillery for when you really need it whenever that might be.
are you doing a load work up? is that the reason for the ladder test?
if so, which I will assume, yes you start at 300 yards at least, round 2 of the test should be done at 400 at least, etc… you have to keep moving back and it takes a lot of time. you better have a buddy to mark your shots. or you can work smarter and not harder by just doing an OCW test at 100 yards. I have a sub moa load for my .338 Norma Magnum AI that took one trip to the range to develop. PM if you need help, not sure what the 100 yard sight in for ballistics have anything to do with a ladder test other than knowing you are on paper… because different loads at 300 will have a different POI. thus rendering a 100 sight in useless
Those were kind of my thoughts as well. I figured the farther out the more precise things would be but I’m fairly green to the long range precision game. I know I’ll get there but I have to ask a lot of silly questions. I’ve been on another forum but the response is extremely slow and I have to take advantage of what little time I have. I’ll post what I started on there and maybe you fellas can help me out. Thanks!
Dan
So here’s the original post made. Not sure how many have seen this but I found it extremely interesting for where I’m trying to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Berger Bullets
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Background
VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifle. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).
For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.
Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.
Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.
Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.
After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”
We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.
Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle
Solution
The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located {centered} anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.
Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.
Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).
Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
.010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
.040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
.010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
.130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL towards or away from the lands .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).
Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith
And this was my reply.
A couple of things that I am very confused about are what is the distance or should I say proper distance for shooting these groups? Second question is is a guy starting with a minimum load just touching the lands and keeping that same powder charge throughout the range of changing the distance from the lands? I’ve been working with a 338 lapua for about a year and a half and just trying to get the most out of it. I would think that Burger would give a heck of a lot more information on something like this before they post the information they have. Thank you. Dan
Dan you will get accurate loads at distance by just doing an OCW test. read up on it by Dan Newberry.
Sorry not familiar with the OCW test but would like to learn more about it, and trying to work up a load using H1000 and Berger VLD 300 gr. I was going to do basically what they describe but just touching the lands, then .040 off .080 off and finally .120 off three shot groups each. My thoughts were all at 800 yrds.
that’s just the seating depth. you need to figure out your nodes etc.
you need to get your nodes which is the amount of powder then you do another OCW test for the seating depth. PM your email and I can send you all the info
Thank you. I’ll do a google search.
Google “optimal charge weight calculator” and you will have a spreadsheet for input and links to Newberry’s site. You can save the sheet and name it whatever and of course have multiples on different loads.
I just loaded Up some rounds using the OCW method.
I shit you not my very best loads For 308 were exactly where Dan Newberry said they would be. To the 10th of a grain.
http://www.sniperforums.com/forum/reloading/43364-308-reloading-data-only.html
Thanks guys found it all! Wish he had more info on 338 but know I know how to get there.
Depends on the bullet, barrel, load, environmental factors, etc., but the consensus among many ballisticians and physicist is that it is a real phenomenon. Lookup epicyclic bullet motion (or gyroscopic precession) and check out Litz’ YouTube video(s): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc. In short, many shooting longer bullets have experienced better groupings at greater distances. I would suggest a minimum of 200 or 300 yds for 338.
Regarding OCW- I work up nodes at one seating depth. Once I find the best of the lots, then I play with seating depth. This is easier with bolt action rifles if you’re not concerned about the constraints of magazine length. Obviously on a semi-auto like the AR one has to be careful if jamming into the lands as releasing the bolt will force bullet into the case.
yaw and pitch happens so fast over 100 yards it has stabilized by then. even Litz has not been able to prove that bullets stabilize farther out, like 200 to 300 yards. go with 100 and do the OCW test for nodes and then seating depth. you will be fine. foe more info on the above video get Litz’s new book it explains it and shows that there is no evidence of what I just said. I used to think the same about my Grendel… but I proved myself wrong… focus on fundamentals of shooting and parallax adjusted properly you will shoot tight groups at 100 yards.
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My 2¢:
100yds is too close: My .308 Savage FCP-SR will regularly shoot sub-moa with match ammo, and I have a hard time differentiating between a 5/8" vs. a 3/4" vs. a 11/16" group.
300yds is too far: Gusty winds and mirage starts screwing with me, and it’s not clear that it’s the ammo that’s making one group better/worse than the next.
200yds is just right.
“They don’t even stabilize until 300yds” always sounded like bullshit to me, too.
When developing a load using the OCW technique, I shoot at 200 yards minimum. I have found that 100 yards is too close to develop loads for a precision rifle.
For load development I usually start at 100yds. For absolute fine tuning 300yds is a better option especially for the larger calibers because of the bigger bullets taking a couple hundred yards. I had a m700 sps varmint in 300wsm that would shoot .75-.85moa groups at 100yds but the groups would shrink in MOA size as the distance increased.
Take it for what it’s worth…