Mr. Guns&Gear…a member here & all around mensch…just posted this disturbing video.
BRAVADO ASIDE- Im looking for actual legal responses to this…can you actually tell them to FO & just shut the door?
Do they legally have a right to do this without a warrant?
If you told them NO- then they tried to come in…could you use deadly force against them legally?
Anyone here actually have this happen or know someone who has? What happened?
This is something I think we need to know, & figure out before it happens to me/us. I think this will be common in the future ,always “just checking”, “for safety reasons” and/or their favorite line… “for the children, is it locked up? just need to check real quick then we outta here”.
Looking LEGAL responses please.
Legally, you CAN refuse to answer any questions, you CAN refuse to show them anything, and you CAN ask them to leave until such time as they return with a search warrant (which won’t happen). They were on a fishing expedition, were somewhat coercive, and failed to inform the homeowner that he has the right to refuse to show any weapons.
Thank you…QUESTION: Did, or did not, SCOTUS just rule a couple or three weeks back, that officers did NOT have to read Miranda until a suspect, I believe, is booked?
Don’t know the answer to that, but I have read that courts have ruled that agents are required to inform you that you have the right to refuse to provide certain evidence when that is the case.
Best I know, if they don’t have a warrant, you can tell them to go outside and play hide and go f*ck yourself.
Maybe be a little more polite about it, but yeah.
Got warrant? Bye, have nice day and stay safe out there.
My first response is always going to be, did I call the police? No? Did they knock and announce they had a search warrant? No? Then why would I want to acknowledge their presence at all? They’re obviously not there to mow my lawn or tell me I won the Publishers Clearinghouse Sweepstakes, right? So what possible benefit am I going to derive from even getting out of my chair?
But then again I’m a rather incurious person and maybe you’re not? There’s always option two:
No warrant, no entry. I don’t have anything illegal in my home and I’m not gonna do their job for them by consenting to a baseless search.
He was very polite
Also let this thread serve as a reminder that the only people you are obligated to show tax stamp/trust info to for NFA items is the ATF and in very rare circumstances the IRS. Nosy cops and range staff have no business or authority to see them.
Well, actually… this is not entirely the whole story. Most states also have laws prohibiting NFA type weapons without proper licensing through the Federal govt. So, if you get pulled over by a state trooper in Georgia, who sees your MG lying on the backseat and asks for your tax stamp, you aren’t technically required to provide it. But it will likely result in your arrest on suspicion of possession of a prohibited weapon. After they’ve run everything through the AFT, you’ll be released of course, but who wants to go through all that?
As to range staff, of course you can tell them to get lost, but that will likely result in your ejection from a private facility.
As always, life is full of choices.
Bet they had grounds to get a warrant if they wanted.
He bought more than one handgun in a (I think it’s 30 days) certain period which generated a Multiple Handgun Purchase Report.
He then had some kind of police contact in Philly so they are probably checking to see if he’s one of those people who buys a bunch of guns then sells them out of state. And if he doesn’t have them or can’t show where they went they will probably arrest and investigate for being an unlicensed dealer.
Was it 30 days for the multiple handgun report because of his state?? I thought it was 5 working days if from the same FFL.
I’ve thought about this on a number of occasions as the leftists keep circling the drain using the ATF to probe and poke and infringe. I half expected it to start in earnest when NY passed the “SAFE” Act (couldn’t have been less appropriately named) and only had a microscopic percentage of rifles and magazines “registered” as a result. Supposedly was one of the largest civil disobedience events in U.S. history. But would not have surprised me a bit for .gov types to start feeling it out to see how people responded when they just show up.
Still not enough PC for a warrant.
It’s almost always a bad idea to volunteer to cooperate with an investigation without a lawyer to guide you. If police show up out of the blue asking you to cooperate with an investigation, it means they don’t have enough to get a warrant or claim probable cause, and are in fact hoping you will voluntarily give them what they need. Like many lawyers have pointed out, making statements and producing evidence never saves people from being arrested, but often leads to an arrest that otherwise never would have happened. Also, refusal to cooperate cannot be used as a pretext for a warrant or probable cause, so your refusal to cooperate cannot hurt you. Ergo, you have nothing to gain and everything to lose by cooperating without a lawyer present.
Let’s call this for what it was. This man was the subject of an investigation, and these agents absolutely were looking for evidence to either proceed further by obtaining warrants or probable cause, or to charge him with a crime. Whether him buying two guns at the same time was the sole impetus for the investigation or not is anyone’s guess. Cops are allowed to lie. For all he knows the guy working at the gun store is an ATF informant who made statements against him, or perhaps his license plate was scanned near the border and that information was combined in a fusion center with the report of him buying two guns at one time.
Just as a thought exercise, we can think of myriad examples how this could end badly for him. Let’s say for example that the agents are working from an informant’s statement. Let’s say they have specific knowledge of someone in Mexico who’s supposed to illegally receive a gun of the same make and model he bought. And let’s say part of the deal was that the mule was going to deliver the gun with an aftermarket threaded barrel installed. If our example in that video is unlucky enough to have purchased and installed a threaded barrel after purchasing the firearm, that could be enough evidence to actually charge him with the crime. Especially if the informant, who has to produce a prosecution to keep himself out of jail, lies and identifies him as the mule. Now it’s not just circumstantial, but is now corroborated by a witness statement.
Also, even if they were 100% honest about why they were there, that’s almost worse, because it means they’re intentionally harassing people who they already know are innocent, just like they did with FFLs back in the 1980s. Which means they’re looking for any and all excuse to trip up someone who’s trying to remain law abiding. Let’s say, for example, you buy a gun that’s 922r compliant out of the box, but you also bought some foreign magazines for it, and your happy, law abiding ass comes to the door with what you believe to be a legal gun, that is in fact no longer 922r compliant because you put a foreign magazine in it. There are also more obvious ways someone could get tripped up, like putting a forward grip on a pistol. Most people have absolutely no clue you can’t do that, but an ATF field agent would obviously know immediately it was an illegal NFA item.
So for me personally, I would probably exercise my right to remain silent and politely decline to cooperate, and potentially even start looking for a lawyer. Note that I consider myself to be pretty well informed about firearms laws, and I know enough to know that I don’t know nearly enough to go letting the ATF rummage through my collection.
Thank you all for the intelligent answers. I just wanted to confirm what MrG&G had also said, kinda like getting a 2nd,3rd…10th opinion.
I believe we will see more & more of this coming, if nothing else as an intimidation factor.
Were I one of those cops there, Id feel like a total horses ass.
Oh I’ll bet my paycheck that they did NOT feel that way.
Some also forget that you don’t have to talk or cooperate even if you get a lawyer. I hear people say all the time “I want an attorney before I talk to you”. What if you don’t want to say shit to them even with an attorney present? You have that right.
YMMV but if I thought for one second that ANYTHING could lead to me being railroaded I wouldn’t say a damn thing to them, attorney present or not.
In all my years on the job I encountered one cop who knew what a tax stamp was, the laws of the NFA and how to determine if a gun was an NFA item or not.
He was an investigator for a PD local to my agency (Georgia) who had several NFA items and worked part time for a FFL/Class III dealer.
Further, state troopers are rockstars on traffic laws but are not the guys you want answering a domestic or conducting a technical investigation into the NFA, especially GSP…
I post this every so often… Here in AZ? No one cares about SBRs or Suppressors because they’re everywhere. Maybe if you get into full auto stuff, you’ll draw some attention… good or bad.