What boots?

Misanthropist: Thanks, bro. That’s what this site is for. It means a lot; I was almost convinced the other day to quit posting information after a couple posts devolved into a war of words. Von Rheydt justly reminded me to remain professional and take things with a grain of salt. Since then, I’ve recently encountered more than a few people who are using the forums for their intended purpose, and I was encouraged.

I used to moonlight at an outdoor store for the ridiculous discounts, and the trail runner vs. light hiker question was probably the most common. The truth is that the lines are continuing to blur. Throw in some misconceptions, as well as the new-ish low cut ‘casual light-hiker’ category, and there is a lot of confusion.

The biggest thing that separates a trail runner from a hiking shoe (of any level) is the firmness of the midsole. That is the single most important factor in trying to match boots to whatever conditions you may encounter. And contrary to what the name sounds like, midsole doesn’t mean ‘halfway down the length of the sole.’ Rather, it’s the layer between the insole (where the bottom of your feet touch) and the outsole (what touches the ground).

A firm midsole is necessary simply for the fact that without them, the muscles on the bottom of your feet will be doing all the work to keep itself stable under your body weight. (Think what your feet do in a running shoe, which has a very flexible midsole.) Put some weight on your back, or even without extra weight, a lot of inclines, and your feet are not all strong enough to keep up. Also, it helps protect the sole of your feet from rocks, etc.

You may notice after a long hike, the muscles on the bottom of your feet (the plantar fascia, specifically) are sore; likely, boots not firm enough were the culprit. This is particularly the case with steep inclines; the flex in the shoes puts all the work back onto the muscles of the feet.

Most companies, for light hikers, use what’s called triple-density eva foam for the insole. For what’s required, the word ‘foam’ may make you uneasy, but it works perfectly, while saving weight. (Remember, every pound of shoe weight on your feet translates to about the same energy consumption as if carrying five or six pounds on your back.)

With proper design, the massive outsoles you see on low-cut light hikers aren’t at all necessary. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that entire category of shoe (the low casual hiker ) is pretty unnecessary, in terms of functionality. A Salomon trail runner will provide just the same support and more stability, with less weight.

The only reason that ‘genre’ exists is for a more subdued, less sporty look than trail runners that people can wear to work. They sell for that reason, and that people incorrectly think they need them to do light hiking. Other than looks, there is not a single advantage afforded by most of those shoes. Only disadvantages, really. Mind you - there are some that genuinely have a stiffer midsole. That said, with those low-cut shoes, the parts around your ankles (called the collar) will dig into your legs like crazy when tackling inclines. That force, normally absorbed by sole flexion, has to go somewhere.

A true light hiker (think Asolo Fugitive, Vasque Breeze, etc) is the next real step up from a shoe built as well as a Salomon trail runner. These have a higher ankle, and a stiffer midsole. The misconception is that the boot higher on the leg will provide protection against twisting the ankle. That is largely incorrect. To do that, the sides of the boots would have to be much, much more rigid. The higher ankle serves two real functions: to protect the ankle from scrapes and blows from rocks, etc; and to better keep the heel seated in the boot. In those boots, the surface of the outsole under the heel tends to be wider, giving better heel stability; that’s really what ‘prevents’ you from rolling your ankle, not the higher ankle coverage.

I realize that means that about 99% of the world’s notions of hiking boots are wrong, but I’m afraid that’s the case. Think - if you had a pack on your back, or were moving briskly, do you honestly think those three inches of leather would stop you from twisting your ankle? Not so much. The other advantage to higher collars on boots is the flex in the material at the ankle allows the energy from a step up an incline that would, on a stiff, low cut shoe otherwise be translated into the collar cutting into your ankle. (What I mentioned earlier.)

From this point, we graduate to the ‘real’ boots. Ones with little or no flex, and harder and higher sides, all the way up to actual plastic boots. These are unnecessary for 99% of the people in the world. That simple. I won’t even discuss those for now. Just find a good middle ground, and you’re set. People tend to make the mistake of buying too much boot. They’re too heavy, and far too stiff to allow any kind of flex. The boots will dig into the Achilles tendon, calf, and ankle, and the entire experience will be ruined. Remember - aching feet will ruin an entire trip. That will be the only thing you really remember, and the time will have been wasted.

I keep bringing up Salomons, but for a reason. They are exceptionally built. The difference between them and every other shoe company is simple; their trail running line is conceived for the sake of racing, or at the very least, serious training. Better construction and minimal weight is the result. So when you take that mindset to boots, everyone wins.

But again, be mindful of I said earlier about the Salomon boots: these are light hikers, leaning more towards the light; the midsoles are very similar to that of the XA Pro 3d running shoe. They are significantly stiffer than the trail runner, but the danger, with heavy weight or steep inclines, is plantar fascia pain. I’ll be interested to see what you think. Please let us know.

For those still pondering the light hiker question, there are literally hundreds of reputable choices out there. Follow these guidelines for reference. For fairly tame pursuits, go with a Salomon XA Pro 3d. With sharper inclines, 30ish lb’s on your back, think Salomon Quest 4d’s or another of their hikers. Anything more, or much steeper inclines, think Asolo Fugitive or Flame. Those models will cover just about anything you’ll encounter. (On the way to Everest, I wore Salomon trail runners for the first few days. Things got a tad trickier, and I transitioned to the Asolo Fugitives all the way to the base. Not a problem.)

I’m suggesting these models not to get you to buy them specifically, but to try them on to get a frame of reference as to the stiffness of the midsole necessary for each level of difficulty in the expected activity.

Hope that provides some clarity.

Be safe.

“Too much boot” is a common issue, I think. The store where I bought my Salomons had two people working the boot rack: one was an old German guy who explained how he had fit some crampons to his 4d GTXs for a short bout of mountaineering in the middle of an eight day unsupported trek at the BC/Alaska border, and one girl about 22 who told me that the same boot would only be sufficient for day hikes with no pack on level ground.

I would definitely say that putting crampons on these boots would be taking things to an extreme…but I think if your feet and ankles are in good shape you can get away with WAY less boot than a lot of people would expect.\

I did back to back 20 milers last year with a 40 pound pack in some Montrail hard rocks - a trail running shoe. Midway through the trail was a climb known locally as “the devil’s staircase”. I was a little sore but it was manageable, and I think if you’re not developing shin splints or anything, you’re probably fine.

However it is also true that up until a few years ago, I could probably not have done this. I put on a pair of construction boots when I was 15 for my first job and didn’t wear much else, ever, for the next 13 years. My arches were so collapsed it was ridiculous. The constant use of heavy boots laced up tight meant my plantar fascia and other stabilizer muscles in my feet just never developed. Then I broke my ankle at work and needed a bunch of physio, and while I was there I picked my physiotherapists’ (I had two, both hot women in their late twenties…it was great) brains about my recurring shin splint issues. They explained about the collapsed arches and overpronation issues I had, and fortunately there was a lot of overlap between the physio for the ankle and the physio for the other issues.

I worked my ass off building those muscles up. I used to need a lot of pronation control - like fancy insoles in shoes already designed for pronation control. Now I need no pronation control at all. My arches have come back to where they probably were when I was 14.

Anyway this is drifting pretty badly but the point I am dragging out here is that what boot you can get away with seems to be directly related to what condition your lower leg musculature is in. If your feet are strong, I don’t think you need nearly as much boot.

Furthermore I think taking trail runners on occasional steeps is a good idea…I think regular use of the local “grouse grind” trail (2.9 km trail, 853m elevation gain) and always in runners is keeping my feet strong.

In conclusion, I plan on pushing the limits of my Quest 4Ds a little bit, which I think I will get away with on account of my experience with pushing trail runners WAY too far! I do expect the occasional sore foot experience…but I am out there recreationally, not for work, so if I have to slow down, I just slow down.

Misanthropist:

What exactly did you do for the arch problem? While barefoot running and custom orthotics (at the expense of taxpayers - thanks for that) seem to have to problem in control, it’s still a bother. To the point that if I don’t wear shoes for awhile (a lazy Sunday, say), I’ll feel it on the inner parts of my knees. They are that flat.

Please let me know. I wasn’t aware of this issue when I was younger (lack of knowledge), and I’m paying the price now. Again, not a huge issue, but I’d like to not have to rely on other things.

Be safe.

BD3: What’s your guess on how many days to break-in a Meindl? They seem so stiff out of the box.

Arch fixes:

  1. lots and lots of this: lay a towel on the floor in front of you, scrunch it up with your toes. repeat until suicidal

  2. arch flexing - this took me a long time to figure out because I never used my arch muscles before. But now I can consciously pull the balls of my feet back towards my heel like there is a string attached.

  3. with the arches flexed, i would stand on a balance board, one foot at a time. Eventually this progressed to standing on one foot on a board on half a rubber ball, and stretching out horizontally forwards and backwards (obviously I can’t go all the way horizontal backwards or I would be in Cirque de Soleil).

  4. walking lengthwise on pool noodles. I don’t know why this works.

I hope something in there is useful to you…I spent a LOT of time on those but I also had the luck of two hot physiotherapists to coach me, stretch out my muscles and “mobilize” (wrench the fuck out of) my ankle every other day for four months. Yeah…my medical insurance kicks ass.

A couple of years ago we noticed our little chap, now 7 years old, had what looked like flat feet or fallen arches. We took him to the Doc, he got him to flex his feet in different ways. This showed that he has arches but they are not fully developed.

Anyway, we read up around the subject and discussed it with our family doc, now the little guy:

  1. Has a mixing bowl with around 30 pencils in it. With each foot he picks up all the pencils and places them out side the bowl and then puts them back in.
  2. He does what he calls “Foot ups”. That is holding onto the dining table and slowly moving from foot flat to tiptoe around 20 times.
  3. Runs around barefoot as much as possible to use and develop the muscles in the feet rather than relying on shoes for support. If we go out he wears Crocs or Teva’s.

Thanks for the arch-strengthening info. Yeah, that all sounds about like what I thought it was going to be. Kinda hoped there was a pill I could take, or something. Two hours over every day is taken up by some kind of physical therapy (shoulder/back strengthening exercises). Might as well make it three. I don’t sleep much, anyway. I’ll look into it. And about the hot physiotherapists…I’m afraid my medical insurance isn’t that good. But whatever.

OldGreg: The break-in time depends entirely upon what model and line you are looking to get. (Or have.) To be honest, all good boots, particularly ones as good quality as Meindls, are purpose built. By that, I mean that if the boots are meant to be light hikers, they will flex a little, as they should, but if they are meant stay stiff, they will stay stiff. (It helps provide more support for the foot, which is really not designed to take heavy weight on inclines.)

Boots are nowadays mostly made of synthetic materials, and as a result, the uppers aren’t going to give too much. Breaking in a higher technology boot is really about putting some creases/thinning out the stress zones - on top of the foot (where the ankle and foot meet, right on top of all those ligaments), where the tongue folds (called the gusset) and rubs the tops of your feet, and at the ankle collar. Again, it depends on the boot.

Look on their website, or go to a knowledgeable dealer. Models are labeled A-D. A is for light hiking, D for crampon compatible boots to climb serious peaks. A, A/B, and B boots will get some give in them over time. Think a three weeks to a month of wearing them every day to really start agreeing with your feet. Tie them as tight as you normally would (it’s going to be uncomfortable at first, but if you don’t, it will take longer and won’t break in the way you actually wear them), and just man up. There’s no easy way. Look for A/B boots out of their MFS or MFS Vakuum (MFS stands for Memory Foam System…get ready for some seriously comfortable boots) lines or the Air Revolution line (ridiculously well-ventilated). The Trekking line is comfortable, but the other three I mentioned offer some really unique features. Overall, think about a month. Hope that helps.

I have a pair of OTB Ferdelance in black, they are a comfortable pair of boots and have had them for about 9 months. I do have several complaints about them.

  1. After having them for about 2 months the nylon side vents on the side began to tear.

  2. The soles on the boots are hard, when I go into the jail (or any hard surface for that matter) and the floors are wet from cleaning, animals flooding or coming in from outside and it was raining they don’t grip well and cause me to slip.

  3. I have been wearing them deer hunting the past couple of weeks and the boot do not grip well on the dry grass (my converse boots did great) once again causing me to slip.

Like I said they are a comfortable pair of boots and breath well and are very light. I don’t know if I’d buy another pair though.

Depends which ones you have, how far you walk, the terrain you walk in, how you clean them, what you clean them with.

Top end leather Lowa, Meindls and Haix are hand made made with hand selected 3mm, thats 1/8" thick, leather. The padding makes them comfortable without needing to bend or crease the leather too much. Creases will slowly develop with time.

My current pair of Lowa are the Mountain GTX, they are 3 years old and on a scale of 1<- to-> 5 have probably done 1500 miles on scale level 3 to 4 terrain. They are comfy and still look almost new. I wipe them over with a wet cloth and then treat with Nikwax products.

I have more than a few friends in various parts of the German military where Lowa, Meindl and Haix are standard issue (wonder where mine came from). A very good friend of mine is a Jaeger officer in the Mountain/Alpine troops and he wears what they call the camp boots all the time… even off duty. Camp boots are a generic no label boot made by either Lowa, Meindl or Haix. His favourite pair that smell like giraffe shit are 10 years old and have been re-soled 3 times AND compared to other boots out there they still look more than respectable added to which he says they are just about getting comfortable.

As you are doubtless aware, the thinner fabric boots take somewhat less time to break in. I had a pair of Meindl Desert Fox boots magically appear one day, they killed my feet the first couple of times I wore them and took around two weeks to wear comfortably.

THIS MAY BE OF INTEREST TO SOME INDIVIDUALS: The German SF gets to play with and assist with development of the Lowa, Meindl, Haix boots. This resulted in:

  1. Meindl desert fox boots are the general issue for German and British troop. The SF boys wanted goretex…they got it…they did not like what the goretex did to the wearability of the boots so now there is a Gen 2 desert Fox and SF do not use goretex.

  2. BD3 and other sufferers pay attention here. With the present situation there are a few High Speed Tier 1 Units that do not get much down time. The stress of working with load carrying equipment and plate carriers is starting to tell and bodies are not recovering. So Haix was asked to design boot for these SF units to help counter lower back problems. They have done so and the boot has been on sale for a while. I KNOW THAT IF YOU ARE IN THE BRITISH ARMY AND YOU GO TO THE DOC AND HE DIAGNOSES A BACK PROBLEM YOU CAN THEN GO TO THE QM AND DEMAND THAT YOU ARE ISSUED WITH THESE BOOTS. Further, where SWAT teams in the UK were being issued with the Lowa Mountain boots they are now being issued with these boots as they are less likely to result in back injuries whilst carrying assault gear. The boot has a specially formed footbed inside that supports the arched area of the foot throwing you into a more natural stance.

The boots are called HAIX KSK:

http://www.asmc.de/en/Footwear/Boots/German-Army-Mountain-trooper-boot-KSK-3000-p.html

I am planning a 6 week Sahara trip in a couple of years for which I shall be investing in a pair of the Lowa desert boots. Whilst lightweight training shoe like boots are nice, comfy, light and flexible I prefer a more robust boot for real bundu bashing.

http://www.lowaboots.com/catalog/ShowBoot.cfm?StockNum=2308780411&Category=8&Type=M

With your experience with these boots, do you know if any of them have a less acute angle in the toes, meaning more room longitudinally for the small toe than the Lowas that I own (Renegade GTX for example).

This would be because of your broken toe problem. To be honest I could not say if the Haix would or would not fit you. I tried some and they fit me. My wife says I have feet like a Hobbit … I’ll let you imagine.

There are a couple of stores that sell them over here if you are near one of them, check their site for the locations.

If you try them and like them I can probably help get you some from Germany at the German minus (19%) sales tax price.

I was allowed to wear a sample pair around the carpeted showroom of one of the UK’s big military and police suppliers for an hour. The formed footbed is a peculiar feeling for a while but once you get used to it they are very comfy. Like I said for problem back sufferers the British Army is having to buy a couple of pairs of these at $300 each if they are asked for…first though the guys have to find out that they exist and we know how that works.

Danke, sehr!

I’m wearing these daily for over a year now. Great quality & light weight.

Gerne.

I have been watching the series “Surviving the Cut” on NatGeo or Discovery channel, hell, I don’t remember which one. Anyways, the Navy EOD guys were all wearing some boots like Solomons or one of the other brands that look alike. I did notice that on the bottom of the boot in had a yellow circle directly in the middle of the sole if that gives anyone on here a clue as to which one’s they wear.

Anyways, boots looked good when they jumped out of the Helo and the series is great too.

KC

Thanks for the replies, it’s much appreciated guys!

GRRREAT post by battledrill3!

I was always curious how/when to use the powder…

Heard good things about Salomon and Merril. My dad swears by Asolo.
I use Altama Jungle boots for light hiking/“muddin” and Vibram (waterproof, steel toe) for “other stuff”.
The Altamas are great in terms of comfort/weight, but I go with Vibram for range trips. (I just have this thing about needing to wear steel toe boots while shooting). :smiley:

For farmwork… CARHARTT!!!

I had read that another exercise for your arches is to put a tennis ball on the floor and roll the arch of your bare foot over it while pressing down on it some.

You can do it while sitting at a desk working, watching TV, etc.

Thanks again for the arch info. The arch-strengthening exercises seem to building my patience, and not my arches. The scrunching up a towel bit makes me want to eat babies. Walking on a pool noodle was funny until the twentieth time I did it. I threw it against the wall in frustration, was further maddened by the lack of noise, and threw my phone for finality. So there’s that.

Redneck: Not a problem, bro. That’s what we’re here for.

Be safe.

I bought a pair of Scarpa Kailash’s. Really nice boots. I will have to say they are THE most comfortable boot I have ever worn out of the box. Light too.

I looked at them and the Asolo FSN’s. They were nice too but I felt the Kailash’s were a little better. For anyone considering these here is what I noticed from trying them on.

The Asolo’s are pretty close size wise. I am either a 9 or 9.5 depending on the brand and I took a 9 in these. They run wide in the toe area which is why I could wear a 9. This was with their M/M width. The guy at REI had a pair on and said he loved them, wears them year round without any issues. When I commented they seemed wide he told me that is how they run. Asolo might be a brand the guy with the broken toe problem should check out.

The Kailash’s are definitely more narrow. I took a 9.5 in these to get more room in the toe. I could not do the 9’s. The girl at EMS where I bought them said Scarpa’s run narrow, but she was such a bitch I really did not get anything else from her. These might be a brand the guy that had the long but narrow feet might want to look at.

Right now EMS is doing a 20% off sale so here is a screencap of the coupon.

I posted this up in a new thread in the Survival section so more people would see it. I figured since this is a different section of the board, people might have subscribed to this thread, and people were talking about buying boots I would put it in here too.

EDIT - 11/21/10 - I got an email today from EMS advising Tuesday is the last day for this coupon.