A couple of weeks ago a thread was posted about changes to your carbine after receiving formal training.
A small discussion then pursued about how weight affects the operator, but I really dont feel as though the discussion reached its full potential.
People were chiming in with great responses and one user had mentioned that it is the #1 issue that is completely overlooked.
With that being said, what are your thoughts and concerns?
I have a KISS 16" middy with irons only that is very light (dont have exact #), after taking a class I felt that the added weight for my Aimpoint would be worth it.
I have been at both ends of the spectrum. I have added a whole lot of accessories and gear and wound up with a very capable rifle that weighed a ton, and I have kept to a streamlined approach and wound up with a rifle that is light weight and still every bit as functional.
To be clear, these discussions often deviate into “KISS” which is NOT the point here. I’m talking about maintaining function while making choices that help to keep the overall weight of the carbine down. Aimpoint H-1 instead of an ML3, Surefire X300 instead of an M961, DD Lite rail system instead of Troy MRF, hell Magpul MOE handguards instead of any rail, MOE stock instead of UBR, etc.
I believe that every “fighting” carbine should have an optic, light, and sling. You can achieve that without winding up with a boat-anchor of a gun.
I went from this
to this
I would not call the original version “heavy” by any means. In itself that carbine was intended to be lightweight. After my original ban-sunset carbine that tipped the scales at close to 10 lbs, every subsequent carbine I’ve owned has been lightweight, and every time I’ve chosen an accessory I have used relative weight as part of the criteria for choosing between two options. I find myself to be one of the least fatigued of students on TD3 and the same folks that snickered at my boring gun are staring at it jealously by the end of the class. 
If the user is not accustomed to carrying a rifle all day, or performing 200 presentations and manipulations a day, the weight is going to make a big difference. After that, how that weight is distributed is going to make a difference as well.
Add the weight of the sling to pic #2 to equally compare to #1…
I can’t see how you could get much lighter than that… Now if we could just figure out how to do LASERS or power pulses and drop the HUGE WEIGHT of AMMO…
Rmpl
Like Rob, I have travelled the spectrum of weapon weights. I have since come to a much lighter rifle that was I was originally using. This was not done so much for weight, but to streamline and simplify the weapon. When I was running my heavier setup I had shot with it for a long time, and I never felt like it pushed me around because I had grown used to the weight.
Like Failure2stop said, I think that a weapons weight will come into effect if you are not used to it. For example, if you are not used to running a 203, redimag, PEQ-15 etc. and then out of the blue you strap one of those onto your blaster and just go at it I would bet you might run into some problems then.
PJ
My current beast weighs in the 10-12lb range. It’s a bitch, but I’m not willing to part with anything on it.
FWIW, I very much prefer lighter guns, but the hard part for me is trimming down what I want. I like a redi-mod, I like a BAD, I like a 30mm RDO, I like a long rail system, I like a VFG, I like both my BUISs, I like a solid stock (UBR), I like a light. I could trim a good bit, but I’d end up with a different gun.
One of the things that was beaten into us was “ounces equal pounds and pounds equal pain.” They were referring to carrying a bunch of useless crap in your pack, but I think the same applies here. Of course it depends on why you have all that stuff, I used to carry a 203, peq2 aimpoint and buis, but it was part of the job and I was accustomed to the weight like F2S said. Now I have a T-1, buis and a light and it works for me for pretty much any thing I can think of.
Its funny the accessories you mentioned are essentially the setup I am running.
Im running an ML3 with an M951 with KAC’s and a vfg. Weighing in at approx 8.2lbs I definetly cant say its light but cant say its too heavy either.
You are exactly right about your fighting carbine principle.
and it most definetly can be achieved without your gun weighing like mine.
Part of my setup is due to the fact that I was an arfcommer before I came into the light.
Another point I wanted to bring up was in the other thread, someone had mentioned that people were getting killed as a direct result from their rifle weighing to much. Anyone have any thoughts on that?
I see the mount on your FSB.
Got a pic of hand position when you work that light?
I have this:
I have a RRA Mid-length half quad FFT on my other AR. It was HEAVY (esp with the HBAR SS 16" bbl… lol) and Im used to having more space, a longer reach out, and the light forward of where my FSB is on this one.
I’ve become increasingly conscious of my carbine’s weight over time. My ‘go-to’ carbine weighs in under seven pounds. It had originally been equipped along the lines of a Mk18 (LMT BUIS, SOPMOD stock, Aimpoint M3)…switching to a folding Troy BUIS, MagPul CTR and Aimpoint T-1 shed an entire pound. The rifle is much handier and I gave up nothing in capability.
Though I don’t need another upper, I keep opening the threads on the BCM lightweights coming out early next year. I keep thinking that a BCM lightweight, Troy/VTAC TRX Extreme rail and an Aimpoint T-1 or EOTech XPS would be a great lightweight setup…
I saw this picture recently and it made me think of these threads…ounces equal pounds and pounds do indeed equal pain. It isn’t much of an exaggeration to say I know some guys who would drill holes in their toothbrush if they thought it would save weight…people often forget that Soldiers and Marines carry far more than their weapon and spare ammunition. Hopefully the trend towards lighter optics and rails will filter down to the troops…
Would you mind sharing some specifics on these uppers?
Here’s the whole thread on them…
I agree weight is something to consider and anyone who has ever humped a significant distance with a heavy weapon will attest to that.
With that said though, I sometimes see people get so wrapped around the axle with weight that they’ll start to attach accessories on their AR’s that take away from the systems full or intended potential. Like mounting pistol lights on long guns. For home owners or recreational shooters I don’t see that much of an issue with it. And even then, let’s be honest how long are they going to hold their rifle??
But for LEO’s, I think it’s a big no no. You’re limiting the capabilities of your system and the effective distance you can illuminate a suspect over a few ounces. At that point what’s more important, lighting something up, and being able to see it or weight.
And before someone says, well as per the specs those lights put out the same lumens. Yes they do, however they results are significantly different when tested in the streets. If you don’t believe me, give it a try. Take an x-300 and a M950 series light outside at night and see the difference for yourself.
I tested the x300 with an M950, a M960 and an E2E and all had different results as they should. For the distance an LEO might need to light something or someone up outdoors, the x300 IMO was inadequate. Shoot the E2E was better outside than the x300 at longer distances. It’s a pistol light, meant for short distance, just like its intended system.
So my point is weight should be considered as long as you don’t take away from the purpose of the whole system in your mission profile.
R.
You have made some of the same exact points that I was arguing this http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=37428 post here.
I didn’t see anywhere that you commented on the theory that using a pistol light on a carbine is reducing capability.
What I did see was more of the usual tough-guy bullshit where you comment that if you just train hard enough or plan on a short enough engagement weight of gear is not an issue.
You and I have discussed this before and I know where you’re coming from, but I think the opposite is true as well, and probably more so. There are a hell of a lot of people that add full-length free-float rails, 3-cell Surefire lights, lasers, complicated slings, etc. that are never going to have any reason to leave the house with the gun other than to take it to the range or a class.
Like Pat says, mission drives the gear train and that cuts both ways.
Hey Rob,
I could not agree with you more on that one.
And because of our last talk I added the mission profile statement to my remarks. For home users I think its fine. I just see an issue with it were more demanding situations might be at play. At that point its a fine line between weight and capability. And only the user can determine that.
R.
The reason my comment went unnoticed was because I never commented on that issue. What I did mention in an earlier post was I wouldnt let weight render the functionality of the carbine which is proportionate to what the user above me had mentioned.
As far as the tough guy bullshit goes,
Its very counter productive to me to undermine my training philosophies and principles and not provide an explanation.
I come to this website to learn from individuals like yourself and other professionals.
The length of the engagement time was given to me by a law enforcement officer a few weeks prior to that thread. The reason for not planning on a lengthy engagement is because of reality. Feel absolutely free to correct me if Im wrong but how many civilian gunfights have you heard of lasting longer than 10min or even 5min? And Im not talking about from the time the operator grabs his weapon, im referring to the time of weapon presentation to the time the threat is stopped.
In a home invasion/ time is life scenario there is absolutely no margin for error and there are millions of other things to worrying about rather than worrying about the weight of your carbine
My wife is exceptionally fit , but 5 ft 2 and 110 pounds. One-good-arm drills are doable with her pencil 14.5 & FS barrel ( W/ sling , Aimpoint & light ). Much more weight could create some significant issues.
ETA: IMO , carbine weight is a significant consideration for petite females – especially if they need to perform tasks like dragging kids to safety , close and lock doors ( really fast) , operate a phone , retrieve a wounded adult male , etc.