VT AK Class #1 - Reviews, Comments, and Photos.

Single points worked, but Vickers is not a big fan of them. They are very easy to use for switching shoulders, but he contends that they suck for everything else. Having used one for a bit on my AR now, I have to agree with him on that. Great for switching to the left shoulder…they stink for about everything else.

Larry has his name on a quick adjust two point sling from Blue Force Gear that seems to work pretty well.

Three point slings bite the big one. I used one through this course and I was constantly fighting with it. I never noticed how bad they suck before because I had never worn anything on my chest before. I had always just used a simple duty belt in the past. It had always had moments of real suckitude like when it would stop me from using the bolt release on an AR during a stress course, but it had always been a manageable level of suck. This time with the SKD Eagle chest rig I was constantly fussing with the sling to get it out of the velcro on the pouches or to keep it from getting hung up on my pistol magazines and dragging them out. It was maddening.

Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?

The students all had some sort of chest rig. There were a couple of SKD Eagle rigs, a couple of plain Eagle rigs, and a couple of armor carrier rigs with pouches on them.

After doing some prone work folks started moving stuff around to allow for better prone positioning.

Simpler really is better. Mags crammed into cargo pants would work just fine too.

Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?

I believe GotM4 had some busted clear polymer mags, but the AK expert (I believe it is Templar…) said there were a couple of bad production runs of that type of 5.56 magazine.

Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?

I think there were only three people shooting 7.62x39mm, me with my VEPR-K, Larry with his reworked 300 buck Romanian rifle, and a PMC who was in the class with a pretty beat up rifle. I believe everyone else was using either 5.56 AKs or 5.45 AKs, with the majority being 5.56 AKs made by Arsenal.

Incidentally, some of the rifles had serious reliability problems with various ammo types. GotM4’s rifle was a friggin death ray when it ran, but every now and then it would choke for various reasons. Early on the first day Vin had to mortar a round out of his deathray rifle, and a couple of other guys kept having problems with American Eagle brass cased ammo getting smushed by the rifle. Steel cased seemed to run better.

I’ll let the AK tech experts tell you more about that because I have nowhere near the knowledge they do of the platform…but I can say that I was happy to be packing my VEPR-K in 7.62x39mm even though it was a heavy bastard and was slower to get followup shots with because of the lack of a muzzle brake.

Some of those guys were shooting AKs that just flat didn’t move under recoil, and their targets showed just how beneficial this can be.

I was also thankful that I installed one of the Blackjack safety levers with the finger tab on it. Those things are awesome at helping to overcome one of the big ergonomic problems with the AK, namely the safety lever. I used the notched lever that can also operate as a bolt hold-open, but this feature is only useful as a means of locking the bolt open to show clear when you are on the range.

It is actually a detriment to try and use the holdopen notch when trying to clear malfunctions or reload the weapon.

The sweet setup seemed to be an AK with a good brake, an Ultimak gas tube, and a red dot optic. The guys packing that kind of equipment had consistently good performance…although some of the iron sighters did extremely well too. The guys who spent lots of time shooting AKs were really easy to spot. The guys with the neat doo-dads I mentioned were easy to spot by their targets.

Poor bastards who hadn’t done much of anything with an AK and who didn’t pimp theirs out were also pretty easy to spot by their targets too. (namely me…)

I used a reworked toilet hole stocked 7.62x39 romanian the first day and a half that had a surefire rail and an eotech.

The sight picture on the EoTech is just too high on this set up, an Aimpoint would be better.

John, you did fine man!

I also started out using a 3 point, an old CQB solutions (now Specter Gear), that I had. I figured it was the most “tactical” sling I had in my box o’ stuff, so I put it on my SLR-106FR. It does screw with you when you’re wearing a chest rig, I’d usually used it with a mag pouch on my belt. After listening to Larry give me a hard time about it, and realizing he was right, I switched to my RPK sling that I had on my back up rifle, my SLR-105A1. This is a simple cotton web sling, just like a standard AK sling, but a little longer.

I swapped it to my 106 and it worked very well. When I ran it out all the way, I could put it over my right shoulder and it hung the rifle in front of me very well, and I could move it over to my left side and there it would stay. I actually had it slung that way when I was firing Larry’s Sturmgewehr.

I picked up a Vicker’s 2 point at the class and I’m going to give that a try.

For chest rigs, I brought two. The one I used was a Specter Gear M1 Mk.1, which I’ve had for a while. I like it because it’s not bulky, and will work with just about every magazine system I have, M14, M16, AK-47, and AK-74. I also slapped a Bianchi single pistol mag pouch on it, intended for the belt, and it was very secure and worked great.

http://www.spectergear.com/os_chest_rig.htm

The second rig I brought, but did not use, was a current Polish military 6 cell chest system. I tried it on a few times but felt it was too bulky for my needs. I am really happy with the Specter M1 Mk.1.

I used a SIG P226 in 9mm in a Galco Avenger on my belt. I’ve had the pistol a while, I used to shoot pretty decently with it, but I’ve let my skills deteriorate, especially dealing with the first double action pull. After that, I’m fine, but I was shooting high consistently on my first shot with it.

I ran iron sights, and did fairly well with them, although I’m really wanting to try an Aimpoint on my SLR-106FR. I have a side mount ready to go, but after playing around with GotM4’s set up, I really like it, you can co-witness the irons with it.

The feeding issues that three of the guys using the 106’s encountered look to be fairly easily fixed. I talked with Dinger on the phone today and he said that Larry Vickers and Ken Hackathorn already came up with a very easy fix based on Larry and my observations on what was going on during the class. I’m still going to try to talk to Arsenal and let them know what I observed.

John, you, my buddy Dave M, the PMC, the Navy guy, and Larry used 7.62x39mm AK’s. Larry and the PMC used Romanian rifles, the Navy guy used a Chinese rifle, and Dave used a milled receiver Arsenal Inc. SA-M7.

I saw at least two guys, including sub-zero, using Arsenal Inc. SLR-105A1’s (AK-74’s in 5.45mm).

The rest of us used 5.56x45mm rifles, with two milled SA-M5’s and the rest stamped.

Again, I had a great time, I’m really looking forward to taking more classes as I can, and learning all I can.

Templar,

Where can I get a longer RPK sling?

Unfortunately, I haven’t seen any for a while. You might want to give Ohio Rapidfire a call and ask if they have any slings for sale that came in with the RPK-74 kits that they are selling.

Also, as to magazines…

Guys, please, save yourself an immense amount of heartache and only use imported military magazines. Bulgarian, Russian, Polish, East German, Hungarian, Chinese, etc, it doesn’t matter, they all work well. Stay away from US manufactured magazines, like ProMag or USA.

I think my 106 was the only one without a single malfunction (using M855). I also shot AE (60rds) through mine without an issue.

C4

Neither mine nor Katar’s had any issues what so ever, three ran like cheetahs and three had some issues with ammo to varying degrees, with GotM4’s being the worst.

As soon as Dinger and Vinh switched to steel cased Wolf, their issues went away.

I was using '92 Radway Green SS-109 and Katar was using Federal American Eagle.

Again, I think it was a rifle by rifle issue, which should have a fairly easy fix.

[b]AK47 class: $375
Hotel/food: $170
Ammo $220

Former Death Dealn, Delta Force Operator hugging two fuzzy bunnies in public and posing with a bunny hat on…

PRICELESS!!![/b]

Cool.

But something that cannot run on American Eagle has something wrong with it!
My serial number is 0312. As Tim said any 5.56/.223 AK ever used by any military was a milled gun. I think they’re on to something there (maybe not, but it screams clue).

Katars had many more rounds through it than mine as well. Mine was on it’s first 1k rounds at the class.

Some pics:

Sam’s AKM

Vihnninator servicing threats with the Sturmgewehr

The Navy Guy fires the AKM

Templar offers a mag for the StG

Grant rockin and rollin

A small part of LAV’s impressive collection

Heavy Metal rockin and rollin

I’m pretty sure that’s the infamous ‘Grant’! :wink: he’s got all the Gucci sh** on!

My 106 now has approx 1500 rounds through it with no malfs; approx. 800 rounds XM-193 and 700 rounds Federal AE 55gr. No issues of any kind.

They can be put together right - looks like some kind of QC thing.

Right you are! Saw that hair and got confused!

:cool:

I had exactly one jam with Wolf. It required the ‘mortar’ to get it out.

Mines going back. Jammed on Radway Green, Guatamalan, American Eagle, & Wolf. Only shot 20 rounds of Barnual so can’t say for sure on that.

I’m an old firefighter, if it can be broken/disabled I can do it. Lock me in a container with two steel bowling balls and come back an hour later and I’ll break one and lose the other!

I’m not saying you’re wrong Robb, I’m just saying I think it will be a fairly easy fix based on what Dinger told me after talking to Larry Vickers today.

Send it back, have them fix it under warranty.

By the way, both you and Katar took some outstanding pics!

What did Dinger tell you?

I’m wondering if the Ultimak rail contributed to and/or caused the problem.

The Ultimak rail (which totally replaces the gas tube) pulls itself and the barrel together with 2 barrel bands w/four screws. I’m going to remove the rail and put 500 rounds of American Eagle through with the original gas tube and top handguard and see if the problem goes away before returning it to Arsenal.

Grant was running a Surefire rail which applies pressure to the barrel but only forward and rearward pressure (just like Surefire M73s on an AR carbine do) which may or may not alter receiver flex etc. and he was using M855. TheKatar and I were the only two guys using the Ultimak rail IIRC. If it turns out to be the Ultimak causing the problem it may require altering the torque values and the use of a ‘sleeving agent’ (i.e. red Loc-Tite, Rocksett etc). I used a little blue Loc-Tite on the screws to help secure them.

Hey now, don’t be “Hatin” us Gucci guys! :smiley:

C4

The fix is to lightly polish the throat/chamber.

I am going to get one of the Ultimak rail systems and see if I get generate any issues.

C4

TheKatar ran a ultimak rail with zero issues.

This is a very informative thread on what works and what doesn’t with an AK. Valuable!

I have a few follow-up questions for the May class…

  1. A lot of this thread focuses on what ammo did/didn’t work and problems with 5.56 rifles. How much better did students shoot as a result? Sounds like accuracy was emphasized so that’s probably the biggest area of improvement?

  2. If you had these choices, which would you use for this class?

  • old school 7.62x39 Egyptian Maadi, no muzzle brake, no rail, etc. It runs.
  • 5.45 Romanian SAR-2 (has optic mount point on left side of receiver)
  • 7.62 x 39 Global Trades SSR-85, no rail, mag well is too thin for Bulgarian waffle mags (they’ve agreed to fix…we’ll see). I haven’t put rounds through it because I want them to fix or replace it…so I don’t know if it runs.
  1. I’m thinking about a UTG quad rail, which for $60 seems hard to beat. Then attach an Aimpoint or Reflex to it. What’s the verdict on the UTG?

Sounds like a great course, good guys, and top-shelf instruction. Looking forward to it, and Dinger, thanks for organizing it.