VT AK Class #1 - Reviews, Comments, and Photos.

Training Vickers Tactical
1

All survived, a good time was had by all. Thanks to Larry Vickers,
Dinger and the ‘Nameless One’ who shall have his secret identity preserved to ensure his continued ability to fight on for truth, justice and the American way.

My shooting on the move is now 1000% better and my skill with a handgun is no longer measured in negative numbers. A number of lights came on so to speak and I left with much to think about and practice.

Everybody was great, it was a pleasure to meet all my fellow students. If you like AK’s, simply put, you will love this course. All of you in the latter courses are in for a treat.

Some advice for those to follow: The Vickers Sling is indeed every bit as good as Larry will tell you it is.

Gloves: Have and use gloves. Kalashnikovs are burn and boo-boo factories. When I wore my gloves, no problem. When I did not, I made the band-aid corporation that much richer.

At a minimum, wear one on your weak side hand to prevent contact burns with the barrel.

2

Great class. I’m pooped! We need to have a discussion about the 106 problem. I’m tired now, but tomorrow I have a theory to share. Later guys.

3

Kicka** F***ing class. Larry Vickers and the not named instructor were both excellent. I learned a lot this weekend. Blaster22s and my opinion of the 106 after speaking with Templar our thought is that the 5.56mm AKs need to be built on milled receivers. The milled 5.56 AKs used in this class ran 100%. I think all of the stamped ones jammed at least once. We think it’s the flexing of the stamped receiver causing this. A 1.6mm receiver may work, but without Arsenal testing know one really knows. I had about 20 failures to fully chamber a round this weekend with my AK-106. This may be the very first class were this many stamped 5.56 AK were used in and pushed this hard. Most of the failures were with American Eagle 55gr FMJ, and less so with Guatamalan, Radway Green, and Wolf.

4

Great class … my favorite part was the swimsuit compitition, with Larry schooling us all.
Saw some great AK setups, this gun can be run almost like an M4, speaking of M4 … M4arc “I miss ya man. Miss your laugh, miss your scent, I miss your musk Ron. I say when this whole thing blows over you and me get an apartment together”…
but seriously…
Guys were snapping away like “Chinese tourists”, so I am sure there will be some great AAR picutres to go with this thread and to wet the appitites of those still to partake.
The one Larry biggie was the lock back selector from BF buffers as the one item a must have.
The MP44/Krinkov/AKM … (for me) M&P demo were worth their weight in gold.
Vinh was once again “the human ransom rest” and C4iGrant’s Doctor and Surefire setup a winner.
Don’t hesitate to check out the Three Angles Bed and Breakfast Inn… Tom and Pat were more than gracious and only 2 minutes from the range.

Along with the professionalism of everyone at the couse and the “Unnamed one” this course brought a lot to everyone who attended and will no doubt set the standard by which others are judjed, not to mention directly impact things downrange.

Will

5

Great class.

I will post more later, but these are a few of the photos I took during the class.

6

Nice pictures. Beautiful weather all weekend. Class covered everything very well. About the 106: we need to warn future classes to test-fire their 106 WELL before class. If it won’t feed brass, try Wolf. If it hiccups on Wolf, take another rifle.

My M5 was fine. American Eagle 50g HP all weekend. Mini-ACOG on K-Var mount worked very well. Hold-over was no worse than AR. Black Bulgy mags, 4 cell chest pouch, 6004 with old-school 226/9mm. Federal AE 9mm. We did about 700 rifle, 300 pistol. Danner boots, single-point sling, $4 Wal-Mart fingerless gloves that have lasted thru 2 trips to Blackwater and are still okay.

I was feeling my 50 years on this planet and midnight-duty fatigue all weekend. Oh well, my problem. Stayed at Hampton Inn, which was nice. Dinner at Applebee’s and Cracker Barrel. Great group of guys, class gets a 5 star rating from me.

Oh, and I learned a new word from Larry the Easter Bunny - “modificate”.

7

This was a KICKA** F***ING class. I had an excellent time. Larry Vickers and the not named instructor were both excellent. I learned a lot this weekend, a lot about shooting on the move and a lot about the AK.

After speaking with Tim (Templar), Blaster22s and my opinion of the 106 is that the 5.56mm AKs need to be built on milled receivers. The milled 5.56 AKs used in this class ran 100%. I think all of the stamped ones jammed at least once (my did almost 20 times). We think it’s the flexing of the stamped receiver causing this. A 1.6mm receiver may work, but without Arsenal testing know one really knows. I had about 20 failures to fully chamber a round this weekend with my AK-106. This may be the very first class where this many stamped 5.56 AKs were used in and pushed this hard. Most of the failures were with American Eagle 55gr FMJ, and less so with Guatamalan, Radway Green, and Wolf.

Larry Vickers said that me, Paul, himself and the other instructor are built like groundhogs (naturally pre-dispositioned for fighting on the move).

I think we’re more like badgers/wolverines!

Here’s a few pics I got.








8

For those who have never trained with Vickers before, he is a very different animal (insert bunny joke here…) than some of the other folks I have trained with.

I was planning to do a little writeup anyway, so I may as well do it here and now.

This was a much more challenging course than I expected. When looking at the prospect of a 2 day course I was skeptical about how much benefit it could be. I am a guy who is used to doing 5 day (or longer…) courses. Thus I wondered just how much we could accomplish in two days. Still, it was a chance to train with Vickers and see what sort of instructor he is and to get some trigger time on my VEPR-K which had spent most of its life collecting dust, so I decided to give it a whirl.

I seriously underestimated the difficulty in switching from a weapon I have trained with quite a bit (the AR) to a weapon I had only 3 or 4 magazines worth of informal plinking through and didn’t really know much about. Finding that front sight and making it settle on target under the constraints of the drills that Vickers had us run was much more difficult than I expected. Add to that the use of REALLY TINY targets and what you have is a very humbling training experience.

Vickers has a different approach to movement than other instructors I have had, and a different take on speed. We didn’t do a single speed drill in the entire course…only drills that had to be completed within a given period of time. There were no awards for fastest anything, no competitions for fastest anything.

The emphasis was on who shot whatever drill there was clean.

I really enjoyed the class. Larry’s style is much different and much less “formal” than other classes I have taken…but you still learn every bit as much (or more) as you do in a more “formal” course. Larry is also quite…how do I put this…entertaining…and not just around bunnies.

After taking this class I am probably going to sign up for the low-light class he is doing with Ken Hackathorn in Sept.

If any of you out there haven’t considered taking a course with Mr. Vickers, I suggest that you modificate your plans and do so.

Edit –

This was one of the highlights for me…my only regret is that I didn’t have more ammo.

9

Excellent information. I’m curious, how much ammo did you guys go through? I’m signed up for a future class and want to know how much I should bring.

I know the recommended amount is 800 rds rifle and 150 rds pistol. But, I attended other shooting courses where the recommended #'s were way off.

Thanks.

Joe Mamma

10

Larry’s recs are pretty good. He keeps close watch on people’s ammo supply and usually won’t have more than 400 rounds fired in a day. He believes much more than 400 rounds is actually harmful because people begin to fatigue and start getting sloppy, and the subsequent rounds just reinforce bad habits.

11

I shot a little more than 700 rifle and 250 pistol.

12

Communist’s I tell ya…the lot of ya.

:stuck_out_tongue:

13

Not it’s "SOCIALIST CARD CARRYING MOTHER FERS"! or POTATO VODKA DRINKING MOTHER FERS! :smiley:

14

Could you share with us:

Slings - what worked, what didn’t
Rigs - where the mags were stored and how was access?
Mags - any problems with particular countries/makers?
Caliber - was it 5.56 and 7.62 or any 5.45?

Thanks,

M_P

15

Vickers 2pt sling works best, 2nd best is a single point and 3pt being the worst. Chests rigs worked best, except for prone, no problem with any mags. I did crack a clear 5.56mm mag at the NRA Range. 5.56mm in stamped guns needs some fixing/tweaking/refining, mines going back to Arsenal. Milled 5.56mm guns ran fine. 5.45mm and 7.62mm guns both milled and stamped ran fine.

16

Things I learned from the AK class

  • Templar really does know everything about AKs.

  • Blackjack or Swift AK selectors are worth their weight in gold. The only reason not to have one, it seems, is because you’re not building a fighting gun.

  • SLR-106s aren’t worth a good goddamn to me. I’ve been to 4 or 5 classes that were AR-centric, and never saw so many weapons choke as I did at a freaking AK class, all of them 106s. Those fellows at Arsenal need to fix that POS like right now.

  • The Krebs KTR-103S built on an SLR-105 (5.45) is so damn easy to use that it’s like cheating. It is, in my opinion, everything that an AK should be. Larry allowed anyone in the class to shoot his Krebs gun, and I shot it for the entire second day. All I did was flip the lefty sling over, slid the stock in a bit, and squirted a bit of CLP in through the ejection port. What a great gun. Having decent sights is one great reason to love that gun, but the selector is like a drunk cheerleader: free and easy. I told Larry that I don’t think I’d get one, but I found myself surfing GunBroker last night looking for one. I think I will end up scratching that itch sooner or later.

  • Seeing an MP-43 broken down, it was remarkable how many other guns you could see when looking at it. Having Larry and Dave bring out pieces of their own collections for us to see was a real treat and a good history lesson. The opportunity to shoot an MP43, well that’s just icing on the cake.

  • If I don’t get a Krebs gun, I will definitely purchase an Ultimak rail and put a SPOT on it. GotM4s setup was quite nice in that regard.

  • One of the big things I took away from the class is how it’s not really rocket science to switch from an AR to an AK. Practice those reloads (they will f you up), remember to tuck the stock under your armpit. Get a Blackjack or Swift lever and remember to bend it out for easy engagement of the selector. The sights suck, but there are ways around it. Even if you keep them stock, it’s still combat accurate at 100 yards+ if you do your job. I don’t consider myself an advocate of the AK, but after the class if I sat down and compared an AK to an AR in a real apples to apples competition, the AK wouldn’t be nearly as far behind the AR as I would have placed it prior to this weekend. My biggest complaints about the AK have been sights and ergonomics. I know now that both can be addressed to modernize this platform.

  • With the course being so AK focused, the course layout was really different from the standard 3 day pistol/carbine in that we hardly shot the pistol at all. For those of you who haven’t taken that class, it’s very pistol-centric and for good reason. Larry touched on it during the first day: pistols are hard to shoot. If you guys had fun at this class, try the 3 day using an AK. I think it’ll be an even bigger eye opener.

  • Did I mention how awesome the Krebs gun was? It wasn’t like cheating, it WAS cheating.

  • Getting to shoot a full auto Krink and AKM were among the highlights of the weekend for me. I can’t thank Sam enough for bringing out his incredible guns. The Saiga 20 gauge autoloader was just plain NASTY!

  • I can’t say enough good stuff about Paul for putting the class together, nor can I say enough good stuff about the effective teaching styles of Dave and Larry. If you show up ready to learn, you will come away with a good skillset and drills you can use to further enhance your skills. Now all I have to do is find a range that will let me shoot on the move.

  • Knowing the low round count and the way we have access to our vehicles at all times, I opted for a fairly light belt rig consisting only of on rifle mag, 2 pistol mags, pistol and dump pouch (which usually held an extra rifle mag). It worked well all weekend and I was quite happy with it.

  • Slings for AKs. I did some of the weekend with the standard canvas (junk) sling. It’s worthless. Fortunately, Larry addressed this and talked about dealing with that junk sling both in transitions to handguns and switching shoulders. When I heard we would do transitions, I put a single point on the gun. I don’t like single points as a rule, but it’s better than dropping the gun or unslinging it and shooting strong hand only IMHO. A good two point with plenty of extra length is king. Being able to adjust it quickly (a la the Vickers sling) is icing on the cake. If you haven’t gotten the memo already, 3 points are a relic from another time. May as well run it out as a two point.

17

What a great experience!

I had a blast. This was my first class and I learned a lot about movement, transition from long gun to handgun, and what I need to work on.

I have let my handgun skills suffer, and I really need to work on them.

Everyone was great, Larry Vickers has a great attitude that puts you at ease quickly. I’ve known the other instructor for a couple of years, but never trained with him. He knows his stuff and is one of the nicest guys out there, and he excells at personal instruction.

Small bore Kalashnikovs predominated the class. I believe we had 16 shooters, only 4 of which used an AK in 7.62x39mm. The rest of us used 5.56x45mm and 5.45x39mm.

Arsenal Inc. rifles predominated, with a Vepr and a couple of Romanians making an appearance.

Regarding the Arsenal Inc. SLR-106F situation…six of us were shooting them that I can remember. Three of us had absolutely no issues what so ever.

Katar’s, Grant’s, and my SLR-106F’s ran like raped apes. Never a hiccup. I was using '92 production Radway Green SS-109, Grant was using Winchester M855, and I think Katar was using American Eagle, but I’m not positive.

Dinger initially had several bad feeds with American Eagle, as did Vinh, but the problems went away when they switched to Wolf steel cased. GotM4 had the worst issues…his rifle would malf on American Eagle and Guat.

I believe it’s an individual rifle issue. The AK was set up to run with steel cased ammo, although the 106 (and it’s milled counterpart, the M5) have spring loaded firing pins to deal with US commerical ammo. It was pointed out that Federal American Eagle uses very soft, low quality brass. I think that’s a contributing factor to the feed issues we saw. The round has to jump a good ways from the magazine to the chamber when feeding in an AK, and it has a tiny feed “ramp” that is riveted into the receiver.

The SLR-105 and 106 series of rifles are stamped AK-74 receivers (1mm thick) that are imported in a “banned” configuration, capable of only accepting single stack magazines. Arsenal takes them and then “unbans” them by enlarging the mag well to accept Bulgarian military polymer 5.56mm magazines, replacing the nuetered front sight block with a military one, and they then put the appropriate # of US parts in the rifle to make it a technically “American made” rifle.

It is very important that people try their mags in the rifle a few times before using them, as the polymer mags may need to be broken into the rifle. It’s not that big a deal, I don’t think. How many of you try the M16 mags you have in your AR for fit and function before using them or taking them to a class? Everyone, right?

What I was seeing with the 106’s that were having issues were the rounds missing the feed ramp and being squashed by the bolt against the chamber area.

I don’t want to make a blanket negative statement about the 106’s, obviously some run like a top. Mine has never had any issues what so ever, but obviously some aren’t so lucky. I took two magazines of American Eagle and ran them through my 106 as fast as I could, to try to see if I could induce a stoppage. No issues with the American Eagle when run through my rifle.

When looking in the receiver near the chamber of my rifle, I didn’t have much brass shavings at all, while GotM4’s had a lot of brass, obviously from the cases not being fed at an optimal angle.

I’m going to try to talk to Arsenal about this. I’m confident that there is a “fix”. If you have an issue with yours, I’d suggest calling Arsenal and explaining what’s going on, and send it in for warranty repair.

All of the Arsenal 105A1’s I saw ran perfectly, as did the milled M5’s and M7.

Interestingly, all of the accuracy prizes were won by guys using the SLR-106FR’s.

Glocks seemed to be the handgun of choice for most shooters, with a couple of SIG’s and M&P’s, 1911’s, and one HKP7M13 and, at least on the first day, a TT-33 Tokarev!

I can’t recommend this class enough. If you can make the time and the trip, definitely try to get in, even if you have to buy a new AK to do it!

Now for some pics. These were taken using my phone, so I apologize for the quality.

Sighting in on the line:

Old school and new school:

GotM4 and Dinger gearing up:

Larry Vickers and his bunny at Cracker Barrel the first night:

On the line, Day 2:

Dinger and the Vinhinator:

Downtime:

Larry Vickers explaining how to get the job done with a Sturmgewehr:

Panzerschreck loading up the Sturmgewehr. He and I have wanted one of these things since we were 12 I think.

Shooting on the move:

My buddy Dave expressing how most of us felt about the class:

The Man Himself…:smiley:

18

Very interesting reviews and photos!

I am taking this class in May and am looking forward to it. Did you guys not shoot any steel?

Thanks also for the tip on the recoil buffer. Do they smooth things out pretty well?

19

I would argue against the recoil buffer. Really, really argue against it.

It’s not needed and I’ve seen more issues resulting from one being installed than just leaving it stock.

Black Jack Buffers sells their safety with the tab and the bolt handle cut out, which can’t be recommended enough.

http://http://www.blackjackbuffers.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=202&zenid=4805e49dda5ed09e5064dcc590c2876c

We shot a small steel plate at distance in a competition, but eveything else was paper.

I know you’re going to have a great time in May!

20

Templar,

Don’t forget, I also used an SAR-3 for a half a day and it ran 100%. That means there were at least 4 5.56mm stamped reciever rifles that ran hiccup free.

This says it is not a design issue like the use of stampings but a QA/QC issue where something ain’t quite tweaked right on the 106’s.

I traded Dinger off some wolf for federal that I will be using for testing in my 2 106’s.

One 106 has been fired with Wolf and Remmington commercial without any ammo hang ups like were going on at the class. The other is unfired in the box.

I will see if either exihibit the same issue as the rifles in the class did.