I would like to attend a course to teach me how to use either my ARs or my AKs. While I served in the Army, that was a long time ago, and as a JAG officer, using a rifle was not exactly one of the skills that was emphasized. As such, I have either zero skills with firearms, or my skills are so stale as to be of no value. Who do you recommend to teach a total beginner? From what I can tell from Mr. Vicker’s courses, I am probably too lacking in entry level skills for even his basic carbine course. I say this because the tactical course for AKs notes that it is not a beginners’ class.
Also, I have no interest in handguns. I don’t know why, I just don’t. Do all tactical long gun courses have a mandatory pistol element? If so, can you recommend a serviceable pistol for such a course, which is rather on the low end of the price scale? I do not want to spend much on something I really don’t want, but probably should learn how to use.
I live in central NC, so Mr. Vickers’ courses or Blackwater would be a reasonable choice, considering distance. Of course, I’m open to others, but I guess my idea of what a beginner needs is rather simplistic and perhaps unrealistic.
I envision beginner’s training as elemental has how to properly hold the rifle, elbow position, range safety and basics, zeroing, clearing jams, breaking the rifle down, etc. Not necessarily just firing hundreds and hundreds of rounds. Skill with target acquisition and precision could come later.
The Vickers AK course seemed to be just what I needed, until I got to the “not for beginners” phrase.
The reason for the pistol is now clear and should have been obvious before. Thank you. Something else to buy (just don’t tell my wife)!
I would say based your own assessment is to try and link up with a squared away and willing board member that may live around you. Go through the fundementals in a relaxed atmosphere and just get comfortable with your weapon. After you get the Glock(agree) do the same thing. Simply being thoroughly familair with the systems and how to maintain them goes a long way. That will assist you greatly when going to your first class so you can concentrate on the subject matter.
Great job being honest about your level and looking in the right spot for advice.
Just be mindful of how far you extend your informal training as to not program bad things.
It’s important to remember that a pistol is a necessary part of firearms training. It’s also far more difficult to master than a rifle which might be part of the reason you don’ t like it.
I’ve heard several top-flight instructors say that AT THE VERY LEAST pistol training will help you more with your rifle skills, than rifle training will help you with your pistol skills. Have you maybe considered an entry level pistol class?
Like others have said a used Glock 19 is probably your best mix of value and quality for your purposes.
Decide what you plan on using the rifle for. IS it for competition? Bullseyes? Marksmanship? If so, the Appleseed shoots may be an option for you.
However, are you in any way planning on using the AR as a fighting platform? Perhaps in defense of yourself or others? If so, a good carbine course is more than the basic fundamentals you mentioned, but also help teach proper mindsets of the fight. The pistol is one. Rifles do go down, either through mechanical problems, ammunition problems, or shooter induced problems because of the stress of the matter we F’d up. The pistol in training is a continuation of that fighting mindset of staying in the fight, not giving up.
The Glock 19 is a good idea, but if it doesn’t appeal to you there are a number of other used 9’s on the market. Police trade-in’s as KY Imports or Kiesler’s are good options lots of times. You may find a Springfield XD or a S&W M&P. Just stay away from bargain bin inferior makes that may be good for plinking but not for fighting, as they will also quit when you least want them to.
Defensive Edge carbine training (www.slr15.com) has gotten pretty good reviews from people around me, and he seems to cover more of those basics. I haven’t attended those, but you may give him a call reference his 1 or 2 day class and see if he will be at a location near you. I have attended EAG Tactical’s Carbine Operator (www.eagtactical.com) which does come over by you. He’s based out of NOVA and I believe he has a course in Smithfield NC this Sept. Its more of a fast paced course that you will learn a lot from, but you need to locate a close board member to show you some of the basics. If you were from WI I’d be more than happy to help.
Glock 19 and either Randy Cain or Louis Awerbuck. I have heard some instructors referred to as “diagnostic”, and I hate to use this buzzword, but these guys truly are.
I have had classes from various instructors, some that can look at where your rounds are impacting and suggest minor corrections to your grip, stance, trigger press, etc. to get you on-target and some that aren’t as adept or choose not to run their classes that way.
At Louis Awerbuck’s class earlier this month we had one shooter that was having some trouble getting his hits when moving laterally. Louis took the time to stop the line and show that shooter a few things to get him where he needed to be. Some see this as “holding up the class”, but I think it’s great as we can all learn from each other.
“Diagnostic”, at least to me, means an instructor that is capable of diagnosing any one of a thousand little things that a shooter can do to improve their game. For a new shooter it may be large adjustments and for a more experienced shooter it may be minor “tweaks”, but we can all stand to improve. For me, that’s part of going to a class. Me and 5 buddies can rent a range, set up targets, and run drills. I don’t need an instructor for that.
Would it be fair to say then that the class is fairly intensive on a coaching level?
That’s awesome actually more instructors would benefit from that approach. I hate spending good money on a class and simply being told “you’re doing that wrong” but not really getting any feedback on how to improve.
Mr. Awerbuck just made my short-list, that you shot 100 rounds only piques my curiousity. I prefer quality to quantity as it means he’s spending more time with the student.
How the carbine runs and how to run it for five days in your home state. Oh, and how to fight with both the carbine and pistol.
My oldest daughter’s first carbine class was with Pat. I hope you had more training in the Army than she had before class. She has also attended Dean’s class prior to another of Pat’s classes. (My oldest son shot first with Louis at 14.)
They even train lawyers.
Best money you will ever spend for training; truly one-stop shopping. Then you can confidently train with any of the others.
Submariner: Thank you for the link. I will study it a bit more tonight.
Unfortunately, the weapons training given to a Army JAG officer during their Officer Basic Course is wholly deficient, or at least it was went I went through many years ago. It was fun, but it was not informative or particularly useful. About all I can remember from it was that most of the non-Mustangs and non West Pointers were pretty poor shots.
After Officer Basic, I don’t recall ever going back to the range. This was through four years of active duty and five years in the reserves. I did get some good semi-private instruction from the excellent Deputy U.S. Marshals in the Eastern District of Oklahoma (really great guys there back in the early 90s), but after that, my skills (if I had any at all) have wasted away. I just got back into long guns about five months ago. I’ve been collecting a few and juggling what I want to own, but only now am I ready to get serious about actually using them.
While all the suggestions so far are sound, I’d like to offer my two cents.
Check with the NRA for local classes at local ranges. They offer solid, basic instruction. Going to a local range on a popular day will also let you start networking with other shooters in your area.
I recently attended a course at Blackwater and was pleasently surprised how flexible the instructors were to the individual needs of the class. It was a basic pistol and carbine class and it covered how the two tools complement each other. Their reloading and stopage drills were solid as well, but they didn’t force their technique down my thoat either.
As to pistols, there are lots of trains of thought. The Glock is a dependable weapon for most. I have had nothing but poor luck with them, but I am a .45 guy. If I was going to use a 9mm I would probably go with a Sig 226. The best advice is go to a big gun store or show and finger-fiddle with everything until you find something that feels right, then learn how to shoot it.
I have been a .45 guy since my Dad got one through the DCM in '64 for $20 (a lot of money then.) My first intro to Glock 19s was with James Yeager (“Colts suck!”) Louis Awerbuck suggested that the womenfolk in the family might prefer a G19 to a 1911 so I sold cats and dogs to buy several G19’s and 15-round mags during the AWB when mags were outrageously priced. (Note to self: buy more mags yesterday.)
For a really good thread, try this: LAV’s Take on Glocks. You cannot find a better expert witness on this board. Also, do not neglect USMC03’s excellent Why Glocks? Why 9mm? thread.
Vickers Tactical Carbine Basic Course description straight from Larry’s website
An entry level course for carbine shooters. This class is geared for those who have not had any formal instruction. Topics covered include safety, stance, zeroing for iron sights and optics, sight alignment and trigger control. Familiarization with their carbine includes field stripping and maintenance. Other subject matter that is covered includes reloads, presentation, shooting positions, and introduction to different skill drills including dry fire and bullseye shooting.
This looks like the course for you. Log in for more details. Spend a few days at the range getting to know your carbine and sign up for the course.
