I’m a CCW instructor, and a question has recently come up. I know what my answer is based on what I’ve studied/learned/taught up to now, but there are lots of folks on here more experienced than me. I’d love to hear some other opinions, either to back up my own or to let me know I’m wrong so I won’t continue to pass incorrect info on to my students. The general scenario: you’re in a store, CCW’ing, when an armed robbery begins. Gun waved around, verbal threats of violence, etc. The bad guy’s back is to you, he doesn’t even know you’re there. Assume for whatever reason that retreating safely isn’t an option. You’re on the phone with 911 already. The situation escalates to the point that you reasonably believe you are now justified in using deadly force to prevent innocents from being killed/seriously injured. As you engage, do you yell any verbal commands such as “stop, drop the weapon, etc.”, or do you just start shooting? Why?
The situation escalates to the point that you reasonably believe you are now justified in using deadly force to prevent innocents from being killed/seriously injured.
Presuming the above, there is no requirement (at least in Texas) to issue a verbal warning before engaging. I personally think it’s a bad idea to ALWAYS train to issue a verbal warning. Same with always training to pull the trigger when ever you come out of the holster. I’d say incorporating it in FoF or certain range drills would have merit, but that would be as far as I’d go. If I’m responding to a deadly force threat, the only sound and sight the bad guy needs to hear/see is muzzle flash.
-Jenrick
A verbal warning just makes you a priority target.
How about " YIPPEE KI YAY MOTHER FUTTER". It sounded good in Die Hard.
I have always figured if I have to pull it, it is because I will be using it. And if my life has taken that turn I’m not sure verbal commands will help the situation.
Verbal commands were always drummed into us (deployed guys) as part of EOF (escalation of force). I have heard and talked to people who drill it into training, because it might help reinforce to people in the vicinity that you are the “victim” and might help move any legal fallout in your favor.
Especially if you shoot the guy in the back.
No disrespect meant at all, especially since I have the utmost respect for people who teach others to shoot.
I’ve run into a lot of people who received very bad advice from well meaning CCW instructors - on the order of ‘drag the body back into the house’, etc. This is outside the curriculum for the class, and I don’t think you should attempt to answer it. CCW classes are not gunfighting classes, and the students should understand that.
Further, other than the technical problem, there’s the whole issue of whether shooting someone who isn’t pointing a gun at you or your family is even worth it, regardless of what they plan to do to others. These are heady issues which, again, are not part of a simple CCW class.
That aside, one of the only things that Mas Ayoob wrote that I agree with is that civilians shouldn’t issue challenges. If you need to shoot, shoot. If you don’t, don’t.
If circumstances are such that you are legally and morally justified in applying deadly force, issuing a verbal challenge would be a tactical error.
Contact your local State’s Attorney and ask for an opinion. If they won’t give you an opinion, contact a very good criminal defense attorney and ask for their opinion. If there is any case law on it, make copies and keep it with your training materials. If you locate a specific case cite, please share it with us.
What if the guy was actively shooting someone else? and you are behind him?
I was taught to issue verbal commands, but seems unnecessary if someone is actively engaged in life threatening activity.
Yes, I agree completely. May very well be tactically unwise to give away your advantage. I wasn’t saying that you shouldn’t do it.
My point was that, relative to subsequent criminal legal action, civil litigation, and newspaper articles, shooting the guy in the back without warning, while likely saving lives (including yours) will very likely make your life difficult in the aftermath.
I suspect that my action would a VERY loud “drop your weapon” a fraction of a second either before or after the trigger press…
All anyone is going to remember is that a verbal command was issued before the bad guy failed to comply.
My opinion is that once you’ve made your mind up to unholster/take action, don’t do anything to distract from your single-minded purpose. In that scenario, the bad guy doesn’t need to see what’s coming…but, be prepared be 2nd guessed ad-infinitum in and out of court.
A reasonable tactic. Might mitigate some of the legal fallout from the bullet in the back.
Only warning is the “BANG”
A verbal challenge is a tool. Justification of deadly force can be bolstered by using that tool. If variables allow, give one. If it doesn’t, use the force justified.
I’m in the camp that says it might help you if others in the place were able to report that they heard you yell “Drop the gun”.
When I see these threads, I want to yell… “DROP THE KEYBOARD!”
(and then shoot)
A couple thoughts…
#1 - KNOW YOUR LOCAL LAWS!…Anyone teaching CCW should know the local laws in regards to firearms and use of force according to the law. Understandably CCW instructors may not be able to impart practical defensive skills but that is when higher education should be sought.
As of law, many or most jurisdictions have laws that are along the lines of “feasibility” of verbal commands / warnings. Meaning that when the use of deadly force is justified, verbal commands / warnings may not be necessary in instances where the issuance verbal commands / warnings may increase the risk of danger to the individual or others being protected. So in other words if you issue some type of warning that may put your life or the lives of others in greater jeopardy from “tipping your hat” then a verbal warning may not be necessary under law. Of course you need to be able to articulate your justification, which leads to number 2 below.
#2 - KNOWLEDGE IS LIFE!…If you are serious about home or personal defense not only is defensive firearms training a must, but this day in age and if feasible, I would highly suggest quality force on force training as it is INVALUABLE. Not only will it quicken your response with a more correct and efficient response, it will also allow you to come to a more clear cut justification for your own actions. Knowing your own abilities and limitations and what can easily happen in an armed conflict greatly changes the state of mind and justification process for an individual on when they can, or should be shooting and how they should be conducting themselves throughout the fight. 99.9% of people, LEO’s included, are shooting way too late and not truly understanding at what point the threat really ceases to be a lethal threat. The more you know and understand, the better your articulation for your own actions in regards to your use of deadly force, which you gained via training and experience. This goes for civilians as well as LE.