I’m posting this here because it’s not intended to be a discussion about a Laser product, but the viability of using a Laser in a tatical situation.
So my question is two-fold…
Do you believe that a laser for general civilian use/ home defense is a good tactical tool to have on your AR. Is it necessary? Why, or why not?
Do you currently have a laser on your AR, or have you ever had one on your AR?
I run an EOTech 512 “F” series, and a SF 9V Millenium 962 light, so I am prepared for low light situations, but I have found that it’s really, really easy and fast to hit with a Laser in the dark, as I’m sure many of you have expereienced with the Laser pistol grips.
For information purposes. I have an OTAL, in a LaRue Mount with a tape switch on my TD VFG. My light is in a LaRue offset mount that I operate with my weak thumb off the VFG.
My concern…I think I have too much on the rifle, and that it may over complicate things in a real fight. I.e., what button to hit…or not hit? Thinking about selling it all, which will be the second time I have bought and sold a laser for my AR.
Consider that a vis laser is a supplement rather then a substitute for other conventional sighting systems. It is extremely useful from asymetrical shooting positions, or when shooting from a moving platform, at a moving platform (or a combination of both) as well as under other specific circumstances.
Most who own guns have very little time behind it in low light. Fewer still understand the dynamics of fighting a gun in low light- that is painfully apparent when reading some posts.
Fewer still have time with vis laser.
When you consider that probably less then 5% of the gun owning population has any training at all, you can see the problems.
Hope this helps Todd!
I’m not a big fan of the visible lasers personally.
I guess I’m a product of the instructors that I’ve trained under. So lasers and optics are not really found on any of my fighting carbeans.
The thing with the laser is that if you have more than just yourself beaming, you need to make sure you know which laser is yours. Otherwise you get several shooters on a threat wiggling their gun to find out which beam is theirs. I know in the home D role, it may just be you. But something to be mindful of.
Lasers are a tool. They work real well when you are wearing an NBC protective mask, or when you are using techniques to effectively shorten the carbine in entries and the like.
When my agency ran 92Fs with CTC lasers, our night qual scores went up, across the board.
Visible lasers can also help you in dry practice; they make it real easy to see poor trigger control.
I place my order of importance for accessories on a rifle like so: 1) sling, 2) light, 3) optics, 4) laser, mag carriers, etc.
I would be more concerned about your Eotech than the laser. I have had a number crap out on me. My Aimpoint and Compact ACOGs are much more reliable.
If I were you, I would keep the laser because you might not be able to turn the Eotech on in time. Just practice, with an UNLOADED carbine (hopefully you have purchased a safety device like safe-stix), activating the laser and checking out the angles in your house. Do this lighted and with the lights out.
Remember, if you walk along with that beam on all the time, everyone around a corner or in another room will know there’s something with a laser attached over yonder.
Practice illuminating with the light and laser at the same time, then moving. Hard to do in most small houses.
halfgod- your comments are disturbingly common. In Memphis a few weeks ago two guys had fixed stock A2’s, gooseneck Aimpoint rails and carry straps. Both stated that “their” instructors liked/ didn’t like.
One was a former student of mine from a long time ago. He has never had any experience, so his comments about what works/ not works are limited to feed back from students (which can be good or bad) and conjecture.
The other instructor may be stuck in another decade.
(they both requested info on how to have a more useful gun by the end of the class.
We know maybe 1000 times more about fighting with guns now then before 9/11.
We knew maybe 100,000 times more then before 1983.
We knew maybe 1,000,000 more then we knew in WW2
The point is this. We need to be able to kill those POS more efficiently.
The optic is a force multiplier, and assists in that.
The IR laser also assists in that. The white light also assists in that. The vis laser also assists in that
The tactical sling also assists in that.
I carried iron sighted, wood and steel guns in combat. I would not want to do that now.
You may need to seek out some other instructors who have more relevant experience.
Pat Ahearne is correct. The Aimpoint is the most prolific and useful RDS out there. The EO works. The Aimpoint is (subjectively and otherwise) better.
I can definitely agree on the IR laser, White light, and Tac sling. Those have painfully obvious advantages.
With the Aimdots and such, my near sighted eyes blurr the dot to the point that I’m not confident in making a 50 yard head shot with 100% confidence.
With Vis lasers it just gets too complex for me. I’m not good at thinking about multiple systems… especially under stress. I’ll be lucky to remember the light, charging handle, and trigger… let alone another button or pressure pad for a laser. That’s just me… I don’t multitask extremely well!
I have been considering doing 1 AR with the intention of adding an Aimpoint. I’m a humble and professional student and always ready to be exposed to different or better ways… But I’ve never been thru a class or any event where I felt that I was at a disadvantage for not having an RDS. If it ever got to the point where the instructor said “Alright. Make safe, and let’s go check your targets” and I found that I was being outshot by the Dot guys, I’d definitely be whipping the credit card out.
If you think working switches is complicated, be really glad that you are only punching paper and not dealing with bad guys.
It is not about how a target looks- that is pure marksmanship. It is about much more then that.
Anyone can shoot. And with very little training. some can shoot real well.
If that is all that is in your future, have at it and enjoy. But please refrain from commenting on what others need to do to keep the hate train rolling.
I’m capable of working a switch… the light switch is all I feel I need though. My carbean will likely only serve for Home Defense purposes. To me, my carbean is somewhat cumbersome as it is with a mag grip and two lights. There’s a lot of items that can be added to the AR, and I picked the ones I feel are most valuable… ammo and light.
It is not about how a target looks- that is pure marksmanship. It is about much more then that.
Anyone can shoot. And with very little training. some can shoot real well.
Agreed. Firing on paper is not the same as engaging an living moving threat.
If that is all that is in your future, have at it and enjoy. But please refrain from commenting on what others need to do to keep the hate train rolling.
I don’t recall tellin anyone what to do, and I don’t know what the “hate train” is. I just posted my prefereces.
You need to swerve back into your own lane and revisit rule No. 3:[/b]
3) Industry Professional – This forum designates a very choice few members with the title of Industry Professional. These are individuals who have extensive first hand experience with the deployment of small arms, execution of proper tactics, or development of the past or current military weapons platforms. Generally speaking, they are well compensated for the information that they provide; and providing information on a free internet forum is a service to us all. Often in an internet forum other posters may not recognize the individual behind certain screen names or have checked their screen name bio. This title is a helpful tool for a viewer to identify such individuals. You are welcome to disagree with their opinion (debate is one of the best ways to fully understand and exchange information), but please take a moment to recognize where their experience and information comes from.
as much time as you spend on the internet degrading others and you do not know the answer to this question? Or are you just asking for Pat’s personal opinion?
I’m not even in complete disagreement. I’m just responding to the original debate. I’m completely willing to see any perspective on the subject.
My only replies represent what works for me. And I’d love more constructive info on the subject. I’m not claiming that anyone is right or wrong… just kicking around ideas.
Exactly!! He’s seen/taught many more classes than I’ve taken. I want to gain any input possible!
Christ! You’d think I called him an ASS or something.:eek:
The point is this. We need to be able to kill those POS more efficiently. The optic is a force multiplier, and assists in that.
The IR laser also assists in that. The white light also assists in that. The vis laser also assists in that
The tactical sling also assists in that.
I carried iron sighted, wood and steel guns in combat. I would not want to do that now.
hopefully you can distract your answer from the underlined segments above.
I always shot with iron sights. When I was young and starting out on AR’s, there werent any RDS like Aimpoints. So irons it was. During my time in the Army/Natl Guard, it was all irons. My awards and such were all won with irons.
When I started shooting in defensive oriented competitions, I still ran irons, and hung with, and often beat, guys running various optics. Finally, I broke down and put together one carbine with an Aimpoint on it, just to see how I liked it. I sighted it in, practiced with it, and still didnt feel anything special for it. Still kept shooting irons in defensive matches. Finally decided to force myself to use it in one, and it was a very eye opening experience. I was faster, and more accurate, than I EVER thought I could be. The Aimpoint completely changed things for me.
When I put together my first KISS type carbine for a truck gun, I went with an A1 iron sight setup. It worked, and worked well. But, I found that I was NOT as fast, holding to the same level of accuracy, with it as I was my Aimpoint guns. It was around this time that I noticed having trouble with the front sight being a bit blury on me, and it really showed in a class I was in. I also found that the Aimpoint dot was fuzzier to me than what others described it. Eye Dr. found that I had an astygmatism in my right (dominate) eye. A contact lense in that one eye made things much better. Still, with and without the contact, astygmatism and all, I was CONSISTENTLY more accurate, FASTER, with an Aimpoint than just irons.
I rebuilt the KISS gun I had and put an Aimpoint on it.
My boys are starting with irons. As soon as they have them down, and I feel they have the fundamentals squared away, they will be moving to Aimpoints post haste.
As for lasers, I used to not care for them one way or the other. As of late though, I am begining to see some usefulness.
I have a lower half of an carbean that is sitting in my safe. As I get around to it, I plan to piece by piece do a flat top with the LMT rear sight and an Aimpoint cowitnessed!
Hawkeye, did you opt for the 4MOA or 2MOA??
My though was that since the dot is somewhat blurry without my glasses, the 2MOA would be better.
