Don’t do it!
Shit, ya DID do it didn’t ya? Couldn’t resist I bet…
DISCLAIMER: I clicked on the sumbitch too :eek:
At least S-1 made it funny thou dude 
The act of firing a weapon is only part of the equation. That’s what you don’t seem to be getting. I have yet to find someone who can’t fire a gun with minimal instruction, and if they keep after it they’ll get better with practice.
That does not mean they can manipulate the firearm under stress or make good hits while under stress Nor does it mean they have the mindset to win in a gunfight.
Jem, the last sentence is the most important one, especially the mindset aspect. If someone god forbid ever attacks you or your loved ones I guarantee you aren’t going to be facing them square off,
with you on two legs, at 25 yards. What if you get shot in the leg, and the arm, and are down on the ground and have to return fire?
Is your hunting or target shooting experience going to apply to a situation like that? Prepare for the worst, and hope for the best I say.
Obviously there is nothing wrong with shooting just for fun, shooting to put dinner on the table, watching the clay birds bust (that’s some fun shit), shooting pop cans with your 10/22 and your young ones, etc. Just as there is nothing wrong with learning to prevail in a violent confrontation. People just want to be prepared.
I am now measurably dumber for having been exposed to that thread. (You could say that about that entire forum. Oxygen thieves.)
jem375
Senior Member
Registered: Jun 2003
Location: Minnesota
…you’re about as funny as a chapped ass… and I was shooting guns before you were even born…
Napoleon’s kitchen mule went through a hundred battles, but he was still an ass.
+1 That’s 5min of my life that I can’t get back.
Those that think that they don’t need training are typically those that need it the most.
The sad thing is that majority of them will remain dee-dee-dees.
And as comedian Ron White says “You can’t fix stupid!”
See “The Myth of Self Training”, coming soon in SWAT Magazine…
The sad thing is an article had to be written about this. How do you know what you don’t know? Which is the point of training isn’t it? Finding out what you didn’t know before.
After taking a couple of classes over the last two years, I’ve decided to take a hiatus. Not because I know everything, but because I’m not satisfied with my proficiency with my the TTP I’ve learned in the classes so far.
I had a conversation with Pat Rogers over at “that other site” a couple of years ago where I basically asked what the big deal was about training in these classes. I had been shooting IDPA and “carbine” matches for several years and pretty consistently scored in the top 2 or 3 shooters out of as many as around 75 competitors. I thought, “how much can they teach you that you can’t figure out in these matches?” I simply didn’t know what I didn’t know.
Finally I worked out a deal with a friend of mine to host Pat at his family ranch. BIG EYE-OPENER! I still enjoy the competitions, but they are not really “training”… especially if you compete trying to win the competition and not the “simulated gunfight” (two different things entirely).
The biggest thing I learned from Pat was that I have a LOT to learn from Pat (and others).
GlockTalk.
Figures.
There are some really good people who have GT accounts…but that site has a bigger per-capita troglodyte population than any other I have ever seen.
In case anyone didn’t realize, my original post is satire of jem and that other dude at GT. It was supposed to be a reply but I hit new thread on accident.
In any case, I agree about training and I’d take it if I had the time, money, and inclination. I’ll see if I can do one during the summer…
Carry on!
No.
Believe it or not there are some objective truths about firearms…like Birdshot does not make a good self defense choice for shotguns, or that shotguns have to be aimed properly to hit anything with them, etc.
Lost of people have a different opinion than that, but those people are wrong.
Good tactical training is great because it exposes reality in a way few other pursuits do.
Often “conventional wisdom” on a topic is dead wrong and training can help expose that.
It isn’t about needing to be taught which end of the weapon the round comes out of. It is about learning how to employ that weapon in an effective a manner as possible in the hopes of saving your bacon in a real life fight.
While everyone may have an opinion about how to do that, not every opinion is right.
I agree. Competition and Training are too entirely different animals. Just like a US Secret Service driver vs. a NASCAR driver (both can drive the hell out of a car, but they are very different kinds of drivers).
I like to think that each strengthens/helps the other (if one can see the difference). It’s sort of a cross-training thing. Kinda of like swimming laps may help a runner, lifting weights may help a rock-climber etc.
Competition won’t help you with the fighting mindset, transition to secondary weapon because your primary fails etc. Competition will help you to perform better under an artificial stress but it’s no replacement for training like Pat teaches.
I heard someone over at GT say they use birdshot, then buck shot, then slugs in their shotgun. I called him out on it but he claims he has used the combo to success before. I still said I didn’t agree as birdshot has been known to be stopped by clothing even at close ranges but that’s his decision. I’d have #4 buck or slugs. Actually, I have an AR or SKS if some punk ass bitch wants to come a knockin’ at my door. :eek: 
How many of you guys think that if TSHTF ever happens, you are going to be allowed to run around with AR’s, AK’s, and etc. when martial law is declared?
You know as well as I that you won’t for the good reason that the good guys(Army and LEO’s) will not be able to tell the good guys from the bad guys. There are some idiots over at the hometown forum at ar15.com making ghillie suits for crying out loud like they will ever be able to use them without getting shot themselves by security forces.
I will, like most others will just hunker down in my home where all my food, water, and weapons will be, and even if I have to leave the house, I no doubt will not be alone, joined by thousands of others with the same idea.
First, let me say one more time, if you feel the need for training, be my guest, but since I can, in my own opinion, protect myself, but who knows, in the future I might take a shotgun or pistol class. I will put it this way, if I am wrong I will be the first to find out.
spoken like a true businessman, Pat…but will take a look…
ASSumptions are the mother of all… well, you know.
I am still looking forward to your reply to my previous question(s).
and my answer is, shoot all you want, train all you want, just don’t try to tell me that everyone needs training that grew up around guns…FBI and LEO statistics state that over a million private citizens defend themselves every year, and I doubt if too many of these people take self defense classes…Hell, LEO’s with their training manage to miss 82% of the time and that is mostly close range…
One of the courses offered here in Mn. is $350 and you have to bring 1000 rounds of rifle and 200 rounds of pistol…that’s about another $250 or so. For some reason most of these instructors think ammo is cheap like the good old days…
Well, anyway good luck with your training, I just can’t see spending that much money for something that probably will never be used in the first place, but that is MY opinion and I have been wrong before…
I thought wisdom came with age?
Sadly, so did I. 
I believe you are trying to cite Gary Kleck’s survey data…and in that data the trigger doesn’t need to be pulled 99% of the time because the bad guys see a gun and then beat feet.
So really our guns don’t need triggers either, right? I mean, the odds are 1 out of 100 that you won’t need to shoot anyone…:rolleyes:
That people with no training can manage to defend themselves is indisputable…but I have yet to meet the person who has been in a gunfight and has wished they had less training.
Because something is possible does not make it wise.
One of the courses offered here in Mn. is $350 and you have to bring 1000 rounds of rifle and 200 rounds of pistol…that’s about another $250 or so. For some reason most of these instructors think ammo is cheap like the good old days…
Or peradventure they might believe that it is mighty difficult to teach someone to shoot without GASP having them actually fire their weapons?
“Alright, folks…on this next drill I want you to think about being in a low ready and when you hear the buzzer think about engaging the target with two rounds and then think about transitioning to your secondary…”
but that is MY opinion and I have been wrong before…
Well at least you’re used to it.
I dare say this has gotten to the level of troll feeding. Or to put it another way, one can lead a horse to water, but one cannot make it drink.
M_P