So I am in the market for some new 9mm +P JHPs for carry and my buddy has a big fetish for fast moving bullets and said he was going to put in an order with Double Tap for some .357SIG carry ammo. I figured I could save on shipping and started looking around their website for some 9mm +P JHPs.
I am switching from Cor-Bon DPX (which I am also dissatisfied with, but that is another story ) and didnt feel like paying 1.10 per round so I ignored their Barnes loading. I saw they had 3 other listed jhps - 2 remington and a Winchester - but they didnt say which kind of bullet. I called their line and talked to a rep who, when asked, could only say that one of the remington loads was Golden Sabre (and also 10 bucks more expensive per box than the Remington loaded GS). When asked about the other bullets, he said they were “Standard Winchester JHPs” (which means squat) and that likewise the other remingtons were “standard remington JHPs” (also means nothing to me). He did however, rattle off some random statistics on their penetration, and suggested that I look into their (35bucks/50rd box!) flat nose FMJ rounds for carry.
No thanks. Next time I call up an ammo company, I would like a knowledgeable representative that actually knows what bullet they are loading into the ammo they are selling as self defense rounds. Given that bullet design is the most critical component of good self defense ammunition, it is not encouraging to know that their CS representatives don’t even know what design it is that they are selling.
I’ll probably just buy Gold Dots - at least I know that is coming out the barrel with those.
Oh agreed. I am only really switching from Cor-Bon because I have had an unacceptable amount of their crimps fail on me, causing the bullets to twist or even sometimes fall completely out of the casing.
I’ll probably go to HST or Gold Dot, whichever is cheaper. I do like the idea of proven ammunition, so PD issue is a bonus for me. I was just hoping I could save some $ on shipping.
Hmm i’ll take a look ! Also, I called up double tap directly, not the vendor… which was the most ridiculous part. You would think that the manufacturer would know what bullet they were loading in their ammunition.
During the latest ammo rush, they were loading a lot of Montana Gold JHP instead of the self defense type JHP. Double Tap was a good company starting out, Mike is a great guy, but they expanded too fast, were scrambling to find bullets during a demand surge when smaller companies had no problems, then performance numbers dropped and quality was lacking. They’ve always been a “premium” priced product but they never really grasped the totality of what it entails to make and sell self defense ammunition. This I think is their biggest mistake. They need to refocus and concentrate on what made their brand respected in the first place. I hate to see companies make that mistake.
Interesting. I could not dissuade my buddy from buying from them - hopefully the .357SIG they send him is good stuff. I will probably stick to gold dot or federal HST in the future.
For self defense ammunition, I would stick with a manufacturer who has a dedicated team/department that does nothing but T&E terminal ballistics of their defense loads. I’m a commercial manufacturer but do not have the knowledge or capacity to do such, so I stay away from defense ammunition and leave it to others more capable. I load my own carry and defense ammo for my personal use, but until I have (the money for) an independent test lab to check it, I’m not selling to that market.
I was not really that happy with Cor-Bon either - they make a good bullet but for some reason their crimps just don’t seem to hold up. I’ve had multiple boxes of their 9mm JHPs twist and come loose in the casing - this even counts the stuff that they sent me to replace the previously bad stuff…
It just seems to me the bigger manufacturers - Speer and Federal and Winchester, all of whom pull in large LE contracts - have the economy of scale necessary to pump out high quality, proven defensive ammunition in a way that some of the smaller companies don’t.
Double Tap started about 10 years ago as a company filling a void in the full-power 10mm market. This appealed to “velocity crowd” despite the overwhelming evidence that full-power 10mm loads offered little over the .40SW. Not to mention the fact that .40 caliber bullets were being pushed well beyond their performance envelope which raised the chances of over-penetration. While full-power loads in 10mm may have some limited hunting applications, I have not seen any pictures of ballistic gel that make me want to carry this ammunition.
As their 10mm loads became more popular, DT further catered to the uniformed masses by offering extra fast loads in common calibers despite the lack of evidence to suggest that this did anything but increase wear and recoil.
I tried telling this to my friend, but he wasn’t interested. He said something to the effect of, “Well it doesn’t really matter what kind of bullet they load as long as it’s going 1500fps!”
I found the 44mag 240gr GD sp load to be inaccurate. I shoot it along with cheap (well, less expensive since cheap has nothing to do with 44mag) CCI or PMC @ 50m in a S&W PC629. The DT will hit where I zero the other ammo, then 6" @ 0700, then back to zero, then another around 6" 0700. I will finsih the box of 50 eventually and be done with it after 5 years.
I admit that I was impressed by the big numbers.:jester: However, in my defense, this was back when they stocked actual Speer GD or Hornady XTP bullets. No way I would buy the crap they load these days.
Speaking of which, I need to take the DT 124gr +p GD 9mm out of that spare USP9f mag. Those aren’t as bad but still only 50fps faster and not as accurate as the Speer GD 124gr +p that are in the gun.
I have some 230gr DT GD .45ACP and those have been the best of the bunch. I keep Fed HST 230+p in the USP though.
I constantly tell people that there are no magic bullets, and that if it was OK to drive such-and-such bullet 200fps past it’s design envelope the the “Big Three” would do so.
Extra hot ammo also brings reliability and durability issues with it, not to mention the rounds are likely well above SAAMI specs.
I agree. I wish I could convince my buddy of that - frankly, his plans seem unsafe to me.
He wants to convert a Glock 21 to chamber and fire .40 super and to use this as a home defense pistol. He also is selling his Glock 30 to swap for a Glock 32, which he is loading with some very hot .357 SIG from Doubletap (135gr bullet @ 1550FSP if i remember correctly).
My big concern is that 1. the .40 super contraption he will make is going to be far too unreliable for home defense. He has already stated his intention to fire only ~50 rounds worth of ammunition out of it before he decides it is reliable enough (my eyes nearly popped out of my head when he said this). I am also worried that with the super hot loaded .357SIG he will be packing that he will cause enough bullet setback to blow his G32 to smithereens…
I am very happy with normal 147gr Ranger Ts myself…
If loaded properly, the 357 SIG won’t have setback issues. Size the mouth properly for proper bullet tension and use bulky powders so the base of the bullet touches it when seated. Any setback will be stopped by the powder.
Too bad, he has/had a very good couple of choices for defensive .45s
If he wants high velocity then he’d be far better off going half instead of full retard by buying a couple of barrels for the .400CorBon. He’d have really fast bullets flying from his guns, but still be able to swap barrels back when he stops losing his mind.
I have had a couple of friends start to go this route, one was convinced otherwise when I turned him on the reading FerFal’s stuff ref the Argentine economic collapse, the other simply “got it” when I mentioned that there was no way he could stock enough ammo for the zombie apocalypse (I was joking, but the point was made that you’d have to be really rich to be able to buy enough of those magic bullets to keep a stock of).
Doc Roberts has a thread around here ref testing DT loads in .40 vs standard Gold Dot, his tests showed no discernible wound ballistics difference, which is what I assume your buddy is looking for in “stopping power” from these loads.
Raven, you are correct sir, but you boldly assume that DT is loading their .357Sig as you note.
Just sayin.
I am aware… He is keeping the .45 assembly to his pistol but my concern is using a really stupid cartridge that is totally unproven both in general and in his franken-pistol. But he is completely stuck in his ways, he literally will just pretend I am not talking when I bring up gel tests of his favorite cartridges. At this point I am content to let him waste money until he figures out I was right some point down the line.
Those 3 are pretty much the best of the bunch. For what it’s worth, Double Tap’s JHP’s are Gold Dots. ATK just doesn’t want them using the trademarked term “Gold Dot”, but the components are precisely Speer GD bullets and CCI primers.
I’ve found actual Speer LE ammo to be more reliable, however. Had a few bad lots of DT with proud primers. I called DT and they just said “huh, that’s funny”. So funny I stopped buying their product.
Yeah I wasn’t curious to be a guinea pig and play “guess the bullet” on 9mm JHP that was almost 50% more expensive than comparable Winchester loads. Bought 100rds of the 9mm 147gr Winchester Ranger T series instead.
Respectfully, I made no such claim, Sir. I simply stated if done correctly, there is no meaningful setback issue. I did not state, assume, nor opine that DT loads ammunition using this method. I do not know nor ever commented on DT’s protocol or procedure for loading 357 SIG ammo.
