Thanks for the info. Just signed up for April 28th 29th. I Think this will help me because I have not had any kind of training.
I am 38 and I wear contacts so I don’t think my eyesight is my problem, after I get some training I will let everybody know how I do. Again thanks for the help.
PMC ammo is fine and definitely not your problem.
- Mechanically zero out your rig.
A. You want your front sight post flush within the front sight base.
B. You want your windage centered on your rear/buis.
C. Depending on the model of rear/buis you also want to set your elevation to “Z” for zero 8/3 Rifle, 8/3-2 Rifle USMC, 6/3 carbine or equivalent 300m battle sight zero setting.
As another poster mentioned you can use the tip of a 5.56mm round to adjust your front sight post. Being that most projectiles aren’t very pointy I use the fag tool.
To avoid the problem of “I’m not even hitting paper”. Zero at 25 meters or roughly 83 ft. It’s nice to use a BZO target but any target with a prominent center bull will do.
The key to a good zero is getting “a good group”. It really doesn’t matter where on the target you initially get “the group”…but you have to get a group. Once you get a group, then you can adjust your group into the black by making corrections for elevation and windage on your Rifle.
If your a NSF (non shooting fuck) and your groups are all over like buck shot well that’s beyond the scope of this posting 
All BZO elevation changes should be made via your front sight post not your rear sight and windage is made via your rear sight. Drilling down with your FSP will bring your POI up and vice versa. For windage, left is left and right is right.
Stick with the 3, 3, 4 scenario. Fire 3 well aimed shots. Go down range and mark the target and make the needed adjustments to your rifle. Fire another 3 well aimed shots etc etc. Once you have it dialed in you can fire additional strings and fine tune to your liking.
All shots should be aimed center mass and don’t forget to apply good fundamentals of marksmanship. Prone is the most stable position, proper sight alignment, sight picture, stock weld, good trigger control - slow steady squeeze straight and to the rear and of course follow through. That means…once the shot breaks, don’t break stock weld to rubber neck and look downrange as if your going to actually fucking see where the rounds strike. Trust me, I see this dumb shit all the time.
Once you get a good 25m battle sight zero and your confident in your stick then feel free to transition back to 100 yards, do the sponge bob square pants zero or whatever.
There is absolutely no need for the OP to go back and mechanically zero his sights, since he has already shot and is on paper at 50 yards.
To avoid the problem of “I’m not even hitting paper”. Zero at 25 meters or roughly 83 ft. It’s nice to use a BZO target but any target with a prominent center bull will do.
The OP has already shot at 50 yards. No need to revert to 25, since he is already tracking groups.
Further, POA/POI at 25 is useless, should be going for 1-1.5 inches low at 25, unless you have a weapon with a “300” aiming point and are trying to achieve a 300 meter zero, which is pretty much useless unless you have an actual 300 meter target to confirm on.
Looks like the OP os trying to achieve a 50 yard zero, and while it isn’t what I recommend, it is a viable method.
All BZO elevation changes should be made via your front sight post not your rear sight and windage is made via your rear sight. Drilling down with your FSP will bring your POI up and vice versa. For windage, left is left and right is right.
The rear sight he is referencing does not have the ability to be adjusted for elevation.
For future reference, it’s a good idea to read all the replies, follow all the links, and know what you are talking about before posting a reply.
Once you get a good 25m battle sight zero and your confident in your stick then feel free to transition back to 100 yards, do the sponge bob square pants zero or whatever.
What is a “sponge bob square pants zero”?
I am curious as to how often you adjusted and by how much each time and if there is any play in the sight, mostly asking in case your adjusting to much or anything like that.
At any rate it sounds like you have an inconsistent sight picture as far as horizontal goes with the high impact possibly being an incorrect sight picture, the sight needing raised, or pressure from the bi-pod (if attached to barrel in some manor including none free float hand guards) tilting the barrel up. Unless your doing something screwy with the adjusting.
This thread is timely for me. I was hesitant to start a thread, even tho I couldn’t come up with anything with a search. I shot my 6920 for the first time yesterday. Weather and minor surgery have kept me from the range for over a month. I started off at 100 feet just putting two mags thru it taking crude aim at a target. Nothing hit the target. I was surprised, but I was playing more than trying for groups, but I expected lots of holes on the paper. So, I did the next thing I was going to do anyway, and set up on a bench rest at 50 yards, and took 10 careful shots. Nothing on the paper. I could see it looked like they were several inches below the paper. At this point, I decided to quit, as I had already sited one other brand new gun and was probably just tired. I have done a lot of reading and searching last night and today, and what I found was that Colt zeros the rifles for 300 meters. Now, I know what I need to do on the next trip to the range, and am looking forward to it. Long winded lead up to my question. Why does Colt (and others?) Zero their AR’s at 300 meters?
Going on a 300 yard zero you should be about 1" low at 25yds, 1" high at 50 yds, around 4" high at 100 yds. Differences in ammo and rifles will changes this a little bit, but it will be close.
DM - add this link to review (in addition to all the others given above)
The 300m BZO (Battle Sight Zero) allows you to strike a man sized target from 0-300m without having to make any adjustment to your iron sights.
As you’ve seen in this thread and others everybody seems to have a favorite zero/setup and they all stink to somebody else. There are reasons the military uses a 25m BZO. Two being the simplicity and avoiding the aforementioned “I’m not hitting anything” phenomenon that you’ve personally experienced. When that happens it sucks. What a bummer to take your new stick to the range and you can barely get on paper right? You certainly don’t drive home feeling confident in yourself and your gear. That’s a problem.
I’m not saying the 25m zero is the end all be all or the perfect zero for every one. Individual mission as well as what you simply prefer and train with always dictates. For instance former 1st SFOD member now Firearms Instructor Paul Howe. If you go to Paul’s web site www.combatshootingandtactics.com Paul has several published articles you can read/print off including his preferred BZO and why HE uses this particular zero. Reading up on Paul’s background, his former unit’s primary mission, his combat experience, the fact that he also caters to LEO etc. His BZO works for how HE trains and operates. It also allows him to shoot across HIS course of fire and meet HIS standards (shot placement) without making adjustments to HIS sights. Paul went so far as to develop his own unique rear sight aperture in conjunction with AE. Outside of going to one of Paul’s classes, would I ever recommend a new guy go to Paul’s web site and adopt Paul’s way of setting up their Rifle. Well they could do much worse, but I wouldn’t because I don’t believe they would be very successfully with it out of the gate.
I’m all for having an open mind and progression, but without a strong foundation the house will fall. Next time you take your 6920 to the range try out the 25m BZO and report back. I guarantee you will be pleased and build your confidence back. After that, go ahead and experiment with other zero’s/set ups to tailor them to you and your specific needs.
As mentioned above and in closing. No matter what BZO you use and how you set your stick up. The only way you can confirm that set up is to go to the range, fire at different ranges known/unknown and then actually walk that range to physically SEE where your rounds strike at those ranges. If your happy/confident then stick with it, if not then change it.
Hope that helps.
O3 out!!
We’re arguing about zero distance in a thread where either the guy, the gun, the ammo, or the sights can’t print a group?
Zero distance is wholly irrelevant if you can’t shoot a group. If it’s a mechanical problem it needs to be addressed, if it’s a skill issue it needs to be trained out.
Until the OP reports back that he can keep the rounds in some kind of discernible group at 25 yards, regardless of where they are on the paper, the rest of this is off-topic.
My AR has an atrocious trigger right now. I’m looking to upgrade when a better unit is in stock (have my order in already) but for now I’m just living with it. Anyhow, my groups at 100 yards aren’t so great either. I was blaming the trigger, but I decided to test that by dusting off my .22.
My CZ-452 is a known laser accurate shooter to me, but I noticed that even with it my performance wasn’t so great. Three or so bricks of .22 ammo later, my shooting with both rifles has improved. My 100 yard open sight groups with it are generally between 2" and 4" and I’ve even managed to obliterate small chunks of clay pigeon and bottle caps that were left at the range at that distance a few times when there was no wind and I was just a little bit lucky.
I’d suggest to the OP that he either sort out what’s wrong with his rifle (if he is shooting well with other guns) or get some practice on the fundamentals with a rimfire. I’d think that it is likely in the sights because I’ve never heard of a gun that wouldn’t get some kind of a group at short distances. Even my 20 gauge groups at that range with slugs and just a front bead. Hell, even the .75 caliber flintlock musket I used to have would do 5" groups at 25 yards with a .715 ball and newspaper or dry grass for wadding! The only thing I’ve personally experienced that gave wandering groups like the OP described were loose scope mounts, so I’d make sure the sights were good and solid.
I’ll throw a few of suggestions at you. First off, how big is the target you are shooting at 50yds.? If it is too big you will have trouble placing your sights on the same spot consistently from shot to shot. At 50 with irons I wouldn’t use anything bigger than 2 inches. Second, concentrate on your trigger pull, try hard for a consistent squeeze from shot to shot, and control your breathing at close to let off. Lastly, immobilize your rifle, especially at the buttstock, try not to bear down on the barrel too much.
This sounds very much like a cheekweld/head position thing to me. Marksmanship fundamentals are key, and some most often overlooked are cheekweld and natural point of aim. I shot AR’s for 7 years and HATED peep sights because I could never group consistently with them, while I could shoot other types of sights just fine. In a conversation with a high power shooter, he introduced me to the NPOA concept. I tried it and instantly had much better results.
The gist of it is to achieve a cheekweld and head position such that you can do it with your eyes closed and when you open them, the sights are perfectly aligned. If you’re having to muscle your head or the gun into sight alignment, you’re doing it wrong. Also pay attention to stock position in your shoulder and stock length. Don’t just do what looks cool. Find out what works for you and learn from there.
You know, I’d actually say that a 4" circle is better for 50. If you have ever looked at those official 50yd small bore targets, they’re always 4" in diameter, for example (Also, those 100yd smallbore targets are always 8" in diameter, so it makes sense that the one at half that range is half that distance. 2", while doable does get a little hard to see.
Even though it might be a little hard to see (I’m 58 and can see it) the idea is to have just enough target to place your sights precisely and consistently. IMO the larger the target the less consistent in placement.
Alrighty, I understand what you’re saying.
Thanks for the link. Not sure I totally understand the 300m BZO, as it certainly doesn’t work for me, and 95% of my shooting is at a place I can not get further out than 50 yards. I didn’t measure, but it looked like my shots were a good 12" low at 50 yards. While I’m not an expert marksman, I’m Not that bad of a shot, specially since I sighted in another new rifle that day that started off shooting 11" right. When I was done, I was getting 3/4 inch groups in the bull at 50 yards. That was also my first experience with a scope ever. I know what I need to do next range trip with the 6920. By the time I got to the 6920, I was tired, and just didn’t understand what was going on.
Absolutely brilliant insight in your linked post. Thanks very much for sharing. :thank_you2:
I got back to the range yesterday and took a friend who had never shot an AR before. Since I had someone with me, I was mostly distracted, and forgot I had put a bunch of reading material on adjusting the front sight in my log book. First off, I thought the arrow on the FSP meant the direction to turn the sight to bring the post up, so I turned the post counter clockwise. It was bright and sunny and very difficult to see what we were doing. Bullet tip did not work. Took both of us to hold the rifle and a pen to hold the button down, and a knife to turn the sight, and it was extremely difficult to do. After discovering we adjusted the sight the wrong way, I got it back down to where we started, and a bit below, but still no joy. I had to give up. Put it away and got some other guns out so we could have some fun. There has to be an easier way to adjust the front sight. Today I spent a lot of time reading and searching on the subject figuring there had to be a tool for adjusting the front sight. Found one and ordered one. I’m now wondering if I haven’t buggered up the front sight with the knife so much that the tool I ordered might not work. I’ve never had this kind of trouble with the sights on a new gun.
Short of photos to the contrary, that’s unlikely; if you’ve scraped off finish, that’s just cosmetic.
Even the type-specific tools can be tricky to FIT so that they rotate that thing correctly…I have one Troy BUIS that won’t take any of the tools, period…
…which is why I still carry a very small nail-punch and usually a couple of 10d finish nails in my tool kit. A 5# box of nails from the last carpentry job I worked in 1998 has been keeping me supplied with simple, works-every-time front sight post adjusters for a loooong time.
A bullet-tip will work, IF the tip is sharp enough to begin with, but only barely, and only until the tip of a single bullet is chewed up. It’s an if-nothing-else method.
May be worth putting a small drop of lube on that pin, and it’ll get easier after some time getting used to the whole push-then-rotate thing.