Hey all, I have a 16 BCM middy with a FSB and a troy Di-Optic FoldingBattlesight. Went to the range today to try an zero. Needless to say I was getting pretty frustrated. Never attempted this before but I couldn’t get any of my shots close to each other. I know I am new at shooting AR’s but I also knw that I am not that horrible shooter. I started out at around 150ft and none of my bullets went where I was aiming. Some where high and right, and some where high and left. I then made some adjustments and the rounds went pretty much the same. Was using PMC 223 ammo. I was shooting from a bench with a Bipod. Had to quit because I didn’t have the right tool to help raise my front site post. Any and I mean any advise would help me out here.
In my experience, PMC is junk. Maybe try some better ammo.
ETA: I was thinking of UMC and not PMC. I’m sure PMC is fine ammo.
You did have a tool that could have raised your front sight post. Any FMJ bullet will work.
Pat
Yes, this and I’ve found that small screwdrivers are perfect as well.
You are leaving out important information. How big of a group were you shooting? Pretty tough to help if you can’t give us that info.
I have a set of front and rear Daniel defense fixed, rail mounted sights that were way off the 1st time out(not even on paper). I removed the upper from the lower, removed the bcg from the upper and steadied the upper best i could on my rest. I looked down the bore, lined it up with the target and adjusted the sights accordingly(this got me on paper) then i walked my groups up and to the left till the rifle was on.
This may be a primitive approach but really wasn’t all that time consuming or wasteful of ammo and was a rather effective method for me.
By chance did you check to see if the barrel nut is tight? Bypods if attatched or supported by the barrel can alter impact points if you exert alot of downward pressure. Is your barrel a LW? Savage
Sorry, meant to put this in. My best group was about 5 inches. Worst group was 8inches.
I did try that but couldn’t seem to get it to spin and honestly I am not real sure which way I need to spin it. It says UP with a arrow pointing left so I guess that means turn left to raise the post? And by raising the fsp does that bring my shots down?
I also haven’t found PMC to be very accurate, but at 150ft (50 yards) it should at least be on the paper and in fist sized groups.
Some good reading here:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=65679 about the concept of zeroing. Pick a zero (25m, 200m, 300m, etc.) and zero to that.
L3/EOTech has a decent target for zeroing your irons you can download here:
http://www.eotech-inc.com/documents/M16A4-M4MWS_EOTech_Live_Fire_Target.pdf
This is for 25m zeroing for a 300m zero.
Bipods are rarely the answer unless you are trained in their use or are unable to assume a prone position. They bring their own set of issues depending on weapon configuration. If possible, shoot off of sandbags or a pack, or use a magazine monopod technique.
You might not be a bad shooter, but if you are shooting 5 inch groups at 50 yards, you are doing something wrong or your weapon is severely dicked up. PMC ammo, while certainly not threatening to secure the winners table at long range, is more than capable of consistent 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards. Group size is a function of the shooter, weapon, and ammunition. Sight adjustment simply moves that group to where you want it.
For consistent shot placement, fundamental marksmanship techniques are critical. Here is a thread that talks about fundamental marksmanship:
https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=30073&highlight=fundamental+marksmanship
One thing that might be hurting you is your choice in rear sights.
The traditional rear sight has small circular apertures in which one places the front sight horizontally and vertically centered. A small round hole makes that easier than a large diamond.
I consider the diamond aperture to be oriented toward the experienced iron-sight user.
Sight adjustments:
Most front sights will move the round about 1" at 50 yards per “click” or detent when at the standard M4 position. If you are using a front sight at another position (such as with a middie or longer handguard) the adjustment will result in slightly less movement per “click”.
Turning the sight counter-clockwise will raise the front sight post, resulting in shots going lower than initially. Commonly, the front sight will be marked “UP” with an arrow pointing to the left. Turning the sight clockwise (toward the arrow) will result in the srtike of the round rising, as the front sight is being driven deeper into the front sight base (making it shorter).
Adjustments can be made with pretty much any tool that will depress the plunger. I have used everything from bullet tips to purpose built front sight adjustment tools. I really prefer the tool. If you have never adjusted your front sight, drip a little lubricant into the front sight detent area, as many come from the factory quite stiff and adjustment resistant.
Let someone else zero the gun for you. No way it should be grouping that big.
Pat
F2S posted about everything I was going to post.
You can’t zero if you can’t first shoot a group, and even PMC should be capable of <2" groups at 50 yards. and your choices in equipment aren’t helping at all.
I’m sure you already know this, but taking a class with a basic gun will teach you how to zero and will give you the supervision of an instructor to help you, or even shoot your gun for you to determine if it’s you or the gun that’s fucked up.
If your shots are all over the place, something is inconsistent. You must work to identify and eliminate the inconsistencies one at a time.
First, make sure your sights are correctly installed and the nothing is loose. Next, go over your shooting technique. Then shoot a three shot group and see what you get. Do not make any sight adjustments until you fire a consistent three shot group.
If your front sight is mounted to the barrel, make sure nothing is putting pressure on the barrel. If it’s mounted to a free float tube, make sure nothing is putting pressure on the tube and make sure the tube is secure. Borrow a decent optic to mount to your upper and see if that helps.
Chances are, the sights are loose, your shooting technique is incorrect, or both
I know it’s not rocket science but I’d still like to see perhaps your stance and how you’re manipulating the gun. IMO, scrap the bipod (for now) and learn the fundamentals. I just put together my BCM 16" middy and I haven’t adjusted either of my sights - I can get 3-4" groups at three times that range using steel cased crap.
I think you need to read up some on the fundamentals of shooting a carbine, specifically your stance, breathing techniques, sight picture, etc. Then get back out to the range, remove the bipod, and try again before fucking with the sights. Just my 2 cents.
Thanks for all the responses. I am looking to take a class for sure. I have only shot pistols and a 22 rifle before this so maybe I just need to work on my fundamentals, breathing, trigger squeeze ect. The problem is convincing the wife that I need to spend more time at the range…
Sounds like you’re on the right track. Good luck
May I suggest you attend an Applesed. There should be one nearby you and it is a cheap and effective way to learn/reinforce rifle marksmanship fundamentals…plus it’s a lot of fun. It’s nothing fancy but fundamentals rarely are and without fundamentals… well it could end like a directv commercial. Oh and your wife can attend for only $10…great way to spend a weekend together !
I have fired PMC Bronze Line ammo and had more than decent results with it.
There has to be another unknown dynamic at work here.
How old are you? How well do you see? I recently traded for an AR with a fixed carry handle and discovered at the first range session that I just can’t see as well as I used to be able to.
I was shooting at two bulls placed in a vertical line about 1 foot apart. On the top bull I was grouping a few inches left and on the bottom bull I was grouping a few inches left and a few inches down. Must have been something optical going on with how I was seeing the sights and target.
Maybe the unconventional rear sight and/or aging eyes may be your problem.