Can’t find any threads on this.
Is it a bad idea to have 4# trigger on a carry gun? I’ve read the back n forth on legal issues, but why is the apex dcaek a 5.5# and the apex sear/striker 4#? Is 5.5# a requirement for LEO?
From what I understand, as long as I don’t pull the trigger.(M&P9 trigger safety only) No bangy.
Around 4 pounds is the minimum trigger pull advised by a lot of very smart people.
I’ve read the back n forth on legal issues, but why is the apex dcaek a 5.5# and the apex sear/striker 4#?
Given the way the M&P is set up, the installation of the Apex parts can yield a slightly different pull weight on different specimens of M&P.
Is 5.5# a requirement for LEO?
Do you mean universally, or for a particular department? There’s no universal LE minimum trigger pull that I am aware of.
From what I understand, as long as I don’t pull the trigger.(M&P9 trigger safety only) No bangy.
It’s not quite that simple. Yes, finger off the trigger unless you intend to have a loud noise is a good safety policy…but under stress or due to inattention people mess that up. You can also end up with gear inside the trigger guard as you holster which can result in a loud noise when you don’t want one.
The lighter the trigger, the easier the gun is to shoot when you want to shoot it…but it’s also easier to shoot when you DON’T want to shoot it. That doesn’t mean the gun is dangerous, just that you have less margin for error with a lighter, more shooter-friendly trigger.
John touched on all the key points.
I would simply add that the reason certain minimum trigger pull weights are prescribed by experts is for situations when you ARE on target and on the trigger, but don’t necessarily want to shoot (think holding a gun on a suspect with a knife while trying to convince him to drop it before you shoot), during these times of tension your body doesn’t register things as precisely as it does normally and it’s not uncommon for folks to be inadvertently pulling the trigger a little in these situations.
This is also why “staging” the trigger is highly discouraged in SD training.
+1 Chicago!
I’ve seen trainers publish to begin taking up the trigger “slack” as one “presses out” or transitions to a new target. Riding the reset is widespread guidance and what is that if not taking up the slack.
With adrenal dump or even match nerves this can and does sometimes trigger shots before the shooter was ready for it - maybe before the defender consciously decided someone had to be shot. It’s happened to me in matches with the short, light trigger of my TRP, the 3.5lb connector in Glocks and with the PC sear in my Pro 9. Not often, but maybe once every other match. I’ve never experienced that with a Glock and a stock 5.5lb setup.
So assuming this is a software problem (me) not a hardware problem, (and working in the software field ie computer apps), I spec my hardware as a hedge against the rare “bug” in the software. I think the old guidance of heavier ain’t bad if its smooth heavier is quite sound advice. Ergo the combat trigger of the AR.
This is also why “staging” the trigger is highly discouraged in SD training.
These days I’d be surprised to hear of a single mainstream instructor NOT teaching taking up the slack as one presses out to the target with the shot breaking as soon as one attains a proper flash sight picture and one is at full extension, and then NOT teaching shooting from the reset.
With adrenal dump or even match nerves this can and does sometimes trigger shots before the shooter was ready for it - maybe before the defender consciously decided someone had to be shot. It’s happened to me in matches with the short, light trigger of my TRP, the 3.5lb connector in Glocks and with the PC sear in my Pro 9. Not often, but maybe once every other match. I’ve never experienced that with a Glock and a stock 5.5lb setup.
I think that the problem here is that you are shooting multiple trigger weights, so of course you’ll have premature discharges when you go from a stock Glock set up to a 3-4lb 1911 trigger (TRP), or a much lighter striker set up.
I’d suggest to pick a weight and stick to it so that you develop one ingrained sense of proprioception (joint position)/muscle memory.
For what its worth as a trained civilian, I use a NY1 with “-” connector that probably has a total weight of around 6.5 lbs or so I’m guessing, and I do as taught, and that is the standard take up the slack during the press out and break the shot when I’m at full extension and I’ve attained a good flash sight picture. The decision to shoot has already been made during the holstered gun/gun at retention phase.
However, if I’m covering a threat, I’ve been trained to keep the finger indexed (off the trigger), but if I see a weapon that isn’t directly pointed at me I was taught to put the finger on the trigger but not prep it (that’s not take up the slack). So I agree with you guys that in such instances a heavier trigger with a longer travel does significantly increase the margin of error in case breaking the shot is not yet appropriate. Like in this VIDEO.
I like 4-5# personally and most of mine have something done to them. A smooth pull with a clean break is more important than how much the pull weight is. I also prefer a trigger with a “wall” for carry. A surprise break is good on a hunting gun, but I want complete control over when the shot breaks when human lives are on the line.
I carry and shoot Glocks and I prefer the stock trigger for all CCW guns. The stock trigger is very shootable and gives me a little extra safety margin on the street and in court.
Some top tier shooters that I know have advised against using a trigger lighter than 4-5 lbs for anything other than DMR type work, and I heed their advice.
+1 on prepping trigger
GU
Though I am not a professional trigger puller, I run the “four rules” through my brain everytime I shoot, the finger never touches the trigger until I want to go bang. I’m down with your software glitch theory:)
Staging the trigger on the draw works if your intention is to shoot RIGHT NOW, which is something you’d be more likely to do as a civilian carrier (as the only time you’ll draw in the first place is when your life is in imminent danger).
As an LEO, however, you’re frequently required to draw down and not shoot. In this situation an alteration in discipline is appropriate.
My current discipline (as a non-LEO) is to put my finger on the trigger at the end of the press-out, I do NOT take up any slack deliberately until I actually fire. It may make me a bad competition shooter, but I feel this is the best balance for me of discipline and readiness. If you have an alternate method you’re comfortable with, rock on.
Another thing that really needs to be debated here is whether or not one should have their finger on the trigger in a semi-imminent cover capacity (like the one I described above). I wish I knew where more of the modern instructors stood on this, as all I keep hearing in my head regarding this issue is Clint Smith saying “On target, on the trigger” but I’ve found myself more and more deviating from the teachings of mister Smith as I’m introduced to different instructors’ concepts.
ETA: I don’t really have a problem with riding the reset because by then you’re already firing. Accidentally firing 3 shots instead of 2 in a justified shooting isn’t a problem in my mind.
Excellent points Son of Vlad! Chicago too. BTW, I traded a 3.5 setup G17 for the Gen 4 17 and I swear that’s an 8lb pull. But clean. 
I had thought of going 3.5 for it but Vlad talked me out of it.
Good shit guys. Thanks.
Thanks for all the knowledge. I don’t know for sure if the apex kits consistently tune the gun to 4#.2oz like in the product description (g&r tactical), and I have no way of determining this, but the trigger break seems hard enough for me to acknowledge in a low stress environment at least.(Don’t know if I used the right words there) This is my first carry gun, and am taking a 2-day defensive handgun class next weekend(Insights). My primary concern was that the apex sear/striker might be a bad setup for a carry gun, but I guess I’ll find out after 20 hrs of handgun workshop. It certainly wouldn’t have been my first humbling m4c moment.:). Thanks to Grant for sending the original parts with the gun if the trigger doesn’t work out.
I used to carry a standard Glock trigger set up, but since I started carrying AWIB, I just felt better about things with the NY/ “-” set up, as it does provide a heavier initial take up than the stock trigger. Initially it felt odd, and perhaps a bit too heavy, but after living with it for a few weeks and dry firing the snot out of it I started to appreciate it, and now, after around 4 months, it has acquired a completely “normal” feel and the stock set up feels like it has a take up that is too light. I should also mention that I do the 25 cent polish job as well.
So I think that instead of going with a lighter trigger, maybe it is a better idea to just get more trigger time/dry firing time on the gun to the point that the heavier trigger becomes easily controlled and manipulated by our now buffer finger 
Which then begs the question: well why not just keep a girly man finger and a lighter trigger :D, but I jest
I don’t think you’ll have a problem with the Apex parts. The key piece to ensuring proper performance under stress is training. Good training and ingraining good habits minimizes the chances of something bad happening. The handling habits you ingrain become incredibly important when you’re dealing with a handgun that has a relatively light trigger and no manual safety.
If you keep your finger off the trigger unless you’re ready to make the weapon go boom, if you watch your muzzle, and if you are careful about how you reholster (slow and deliberate when using a striker fired gun with a 4 pound trigger and no manual safety) odds are you’ll never have a problem.
You hit on an important point. There is a big difference in the way police officers use handguns and the way regular joes use handguns.
My take on trigger finger discipline is this:
I carry a striker-fired pistol with a pretty decent trigger, in the 5 pound range. If I’m not actively intending to make the gun go boom, my trigger finger is in the register position. At this point I’ve had enough training and exposure to different ways of doing things that I’m capable of figuring out my little place in the world and what makes the most sense for my particular situation.
The logic of “on target, on trigger” makes a lot of sense from a civilian perspective because generally as a regular joe you do not have a lot of leeway in regards to pointing guns at people. Therefore it’s generally easy to state that if you’re a regular joe the only time you should be pointing a gun at someone is when you actually intend to kill them. Further, pointing a gun at someone (unjustifiably, of course) is actually a criminal act that carries with it some severe penalties…thus people should not think that they can point guns at people as readily as they can point them at cardboard silhouettes. This is one reason that Ken Hackathorn teaches a low ready where you’re essentially pointing the gun at the ground if you are in a situation where you have to challenge someone. When the muzzle is pointed at the ground you’re not committing any form of armed assault but you’re still in a position to get the gun into action if you need to do so in a hurry. Generally ordinary joes aren’t going to be holding people at gunpoint, either. That is also a potentially criminal act if you do it unjustifiably. There have been otherwise well meaning individuals unpleasantly surprised to learn about a concept called illegal detention as they were being cited for it by a police officer.
…so when you consider all of that together it makes sense to teach people that, generally speaking, you shouldn’t be pointing a gun at somebody unless you intend to shoot…and if you intend to shoot, you should be on the trigger. The idea is to create a mental link between pointing the gun and the immediate use of lethal force because for most people in most situations that’s basically the smart play.
Now all of that being said, it is conceivable that someone may encounter a situation where they are perfectly justified in pointing a gun at some scumbag’s head but they haven’t pulled the trigger yet because they haven’t seen whatever it is they need to see to cross that threshold. The vast majority of good guys are pretty reluctant to actually kill somebody, even if they are justified in pulling the trigger. They may well find themselves in that sort of mental limbo where they are scared enough to be pointing a gun at somebody but are not yet ready to pull the trigger. If while they are in that state the bad guy stops whatever hostile act he was in the process of when they drew on him, now the good guy is in a bit of a pickle. He cannot simply holster up and be on his way…and the fact that the bad guy stopped and may have obeyed orders 5 seconds ago does not mean that in 10 seconds he will still be meek as a lamb. Therefore it’s probably wise to keep your weapon trained on him until the proper authorities arrive to deal with him.
In that situation it would be a bad idea to keep your finger on the trigger. If the guy moves or does something that causes a startle response in the good guy, the good guy may have to explain why the now dead bad guy was shot in the back of the head while proned out on the ground. That is going to be an uncomfortable conversation with the authorities.
My working theory at the moment is this:
Generally speaking, if I’m pointing a gun at somebody it’s because I’m not through with the trigger pull for my first shot yet. If one considers that as an ordinary joe generally I will be responding to an attack that is already in progress and will have made the decision to fire before the gun is even out of the holster, this makes a lot of sense. Think about it: If you see some dumbass coming at you with a knife, at what moment do you decide to use lethal force? Answer: The moment you perceived the dumbass coming at you with the kinfe! If you’re a cop your pistol may well be out of the holster preemptively, as when they are performing a felony stop or serving a warrant. The gun may be pointed at someone even without a specific threat that justifies the use of lethal force.
It is conceivable, however, that in the process of trying to shoot the dumbass with the knife that he will figure out I’m pulling out a gun and decide that he doesn’t want to die that day. It’s conceivable he may surrender before I’ve put a round on target. (Which, given that you can almost time my draw with a sundial is a realistic possibility) So now what? I’m sure as hell not going to just let bygones be bygones or leave the guy to pick his weapon back up and attack someone else. I’m going to call the cops and let them come get his ass…and I’m going to make it abundantly clear that if he gives me any cause for concern, I will happily explain his corpse to the authorities. Until the cops arrive, however, I have to remain ready to kill this guy in case he gets any cute ideas about preserving his freedom by going through me. I’d keep the weapon on him until the cops are on scene, but my finger isn’t going to be on the trigger so that I don’t have to try and explain that I accidentally sent a 124 grain hollowpoint round into the guy’s CNS.
Thank you John_ Wayne777, great post.
In a recent class (Insights Intermediate Defensive Handgun 4/16-18) we were instructed to bring the gun back to the ready in order to be able to see the person who was supposedly obeying commands with a view unobstructed by our own weapon. Muzzle was also depressed a bit and finger off trigger.
Mook, I think you will be squared away on your trigger after GDH. So many people are saying good things about the Apex parts that I seriously doubt they are inherently unsafe (in fact after shooting my Dad’s recently purchased M&P I was thinking about buying him some as a gift). The 4lb versus 5lb trigger shouldn’t matter much once you have your finger on and off the trigger at the appropriate times.