Never mind, I wanted to stimulate people to look at their own needs but I just got advice on who I should train with.
If possible, quit shooting on a square range. I NEVER do unless a class that I’m taking is being held there.
I would literally rather NOT SHOOT, than shoot on the square range.
We wouldn’t be training if we didn’t want to improve. It’s not about going out and shooting up the countryside to prove we can operate the weapon. In your original posting you asked about how to break bad habits, shooting on the move, etc. You do that by training. You seek training in the effort to improve, not to validate your abilities.
M_P looks to have abandoned the original intent for the thread, but what do you guys mean by “bad habits learned on the square range”?
Do you mean doing things wrong repeatedly because noone is watching to correct mistakes? Or do you mean developing bad habits that come with the sacrifices you make to shoot at a club, etc. with some range nazi barking at you because you shot more than 1 round per 5 seconds (or whatever)?
Just wondering. Maybe there are some bad habits I’m not aware of that I can keep an eye out for and try to avoid furthering.
Two posts and the thread went in the shitter? 
That’s a good question. I was assuming he meant the square range mindset.
That’s as bad an attitude as the one that leads people to think that all they need is square range training.
There are skills that are good to have (and good to improve) that are only going to be workable in a square range environment. You can do square range training without getting into a “square range mindset.” Every top tier unit I’ve ever worked with or dealt with or just watched train incorporated quite a bit of square range training into their program.
If you had four hours and 50 rounds to teach someone to shoot, no, square range stuff is not the way to go. For anyone who looks in the mirror and wants to see a skilled shooter, you can’t ignore the square range stuff.
Todd, what I see is people who learn from good instructors and then take too many shortcuts in their sustainment training. The answer is to simplify techniques and practice them purposefully. Then integrate them in scenario based training when possible.
I’m specifically referring to not immediately clearing malfunctions, speed reholstering and sloppy draws.
I would like to know what the original poster was getting at.
SethB – I’m always amazed at the number of people who spend lots of money on training and do little or no sustainment work on their own. I’ve got a private lesson student who essentially pays me to watch him every week. I’ve told him I think it’s a waste of money but he’s got the money and wants a coach there …
I’ve met plenty of competitors who say that local matches are the only practicing they do for big matches. I’ve met LE and private sector “tactically oriented” shooters who never practice on their own but think going to 4-6 classes per year is all they need.
You have to practice to get better. And if you want to get better at doing things the right way, you have to practice doing them the right way. A lot.
I think I said that wrong. I don’t mean “no square range type drilling”. What I’m getting at is this… out here in the PHX area, Ben Avery is the largest shooting facility. If you go out to the main range, you can’t come onto the range with a loaded pistol in your hip holster.
On the main range they have to set the safety bar to the level of the dimmest bulb out there… and rightly so. I understand it, and that’s cool. There are plenty of stupid people for sure.
I can not function in that environment. I’m not too elite or high speed. I’m not saying that at all… I just can not function on a range where there’s this stripe and that line, and you can’t even touch paper on the table when the horn toots, etc. I’ve spent so much time training on hot ranges, that I get yelled at by the Range officers for silly stuff like touching a roll of tape while standing in front of the purple line but not behind the green line or whatever.
If guys ask me if I want to tag along when they go to the main range, I’ll just not shoot. That’s the point I was making, and I guess my assumption was that #3 was addressing the unrealistic aspects of shooting on the benches at the public ranges.
Nicely said. Sounds like a sig line to me
Holy sheet, man. That sounds like hell. Or my previous job (Close enough). What a clustermess, I’d avoid it too.
My buddy is having hell getting his AR zeroed at 50 because the range he’s closest to, won’t let you shoot non-scoped rifles on the 100 yard range (which also has the 50 yard stands). Apparently the EOtech doesn’t count, so the furthest he can shoot his AR is 30 yards :rolleyes:
On topic (if there even is one), demigod references one form of “square range mindset” that is a problem, and I think SethB is looking at the other angle I was wondering about, things like immediately reholstering after a drill, not addressing malfunctions “aggressively”, not doing your scans, etc. Sounds like the two different problems are closely linked.
This is the only part left of the OP’s thread starter:
3) Need to continue to identify and eliminate bad habits from the square range, I’m not sure how to pursue this
I remember him stating something about wanting full day of shooting on the move and suggested he check out Tricon. I forget what his first bullet point was, but IIRC, the second was SOM. Anyway, I don’t know why he changed his OP and stated that all he’d gotten as a response was a list of trainers. Mine was the second response and at the time, the only one with a course mentioned. So, I agree with you Seth, the OP posts that he’s seeking suggestions on how to train and then he changes it to a challenge to the respondents to look at their own training regime.
Thanks. Might change it at some time in the future. But right now I think my sig line is fairly accurate.
What I said was “here is what I need, not what I want. I then asked, what is it that you need, not want, from training?” You responded “Train with Trident Concepts.” :rolleyes:
M_P
Then I completely mis-read your post and intent. My apologies.
I’m sympathetic to the Ben Avery situation. I’m teaching a class out there next month and there a couple of things (360 movement, etc.) that I’ve been told we won’t be able to do. To make up for it, we’re bringing all the students free of charge to spend time on a 270-degree simulator (like a FATS machine, just much better).
But this raises a really good point. Do I think the class at Ben Avery will suck? No. I mean, I certainly hope not!
I’ve never been to a range that won’t let you scan after you shoot.
I’ve never been to a range that insists you throw your gun back into your holster at warp speed after you shoot.
While I’ve been to ranges that like to see the “wait 30 seconds pointed downrange” thing if you have a misfire, I’ve never been to one that will actually force you to do that. And if the RO says something, tell him (a) it was a known dummy you put in there for training or (b) it wasn’t a misfire, you had a slack trigger and new the gun didn’t reset properly. Yes, (b) might not even make sense but so what?
Range training does not have to mean range mentality.
Yeah, I was kind of a dick about it. Sorry dude.
M_P
I’m lucky enough to have a range that allows you the latitude to do advanced skills training as long as you’re certified by one of their classes. Drawing from the holster or FA fire, being an example. A Nazi range (because of severe unsafe assclowns) will turn anyone off from shooting, but if you can find one, a good range with practical rules to allow you to practice your techniques would be a blessing.
You won’t have any problems. Training is held on one of the specialty ranges. Generally, Game and Fish will leave you alone. If you’re on the DPS range, you’ll be surrounded by hugemongous birms for 270 coverage. The only issue I’ve ever heard of is when an overly gung ho Game and Fish guy thought one of the instructors muzzled the roadway behind the range. Game and Fish was apparently wrong, but the instructor was professional about it, and just apologized and the class went on.
I wish I could make the class. 
My pistol skills are in need of some work for sure.
Range training does not have to mean range mentality.
Agreed. My comments were really targeted at Main Range shooting, and the protocols that they have there.