It also does not help that most people review training classes like Guns and Ammo reviews the latest Ruger or Keltec and they try to legitimize their review by listing all of their merit badges they collected from all the other classes they attended.
Come on.
Unless you are simply talking about your personal situation and training budget, it’s like telling somebody they are overpaying for their pottery lessons. The only people in a position to judge the value/cost effectiveness would be those that have taken several similar classes from several different instructors in the same timeframe.
As it is, there are numerous AARs from all over the training map held right here in the Training and Tactics sub-forum. I don’t read 'em all, but I rarely hear someone from the well known classes with a legitamite complaint or implication that the class was not worth tuition.
Really, I don’t understand how people can criticize tuition if they haven’t been to the class. Still, I have been to some expensive schools on Uncle Sam’s dollar, and have usually walked away with 2 new things (might be a technique that really works well or a fault in an old technique), but I make it an effort to learn those things.
I could easily attend a $600 class, show up to the line and shoot my bullets and never push myself or bother to learn or practice anything new. If I was happy to spend $600 to prove that I am too cool for school and didn’t learn anything it would be my fault. Don’t mistake my point of view, I think that $600 is a lot to spend on something that doesn’t involve aircraft or crashing cars, but if it made me a more effective/efficient shooter, I couldn’t be all that upset.
There is a requirement that when a shooter shows up for class he does more than hand the instructor hundreds of his dollars and expect to absorb all tactical and marksmanship without effort. The shooter should be looking to get his money’s worth out of the class.
Is Harvard better than LSU?
They both offer Law Degrees, right?
Travis Haley might teach a pistol course right along with Frisky Fred from Uncle Jim’s Bait Shop and Tactical Gunsmiffin’, but which one is the greatest return on the dollar? And who is to say other than the guy making the investment?
If all you are saying is, “No, I would not spend $600 on tuition.”, then great, your voice is heard.
Because it reads two ways, both of which I find distateful, and the overall feel of the thread.
1- Implication that a well know and proficient instructor is not worth his cost.
2- Trying to gauge market value without being upfront about it, but rather by criticising, and then awarding “agreement points” with a poster responding to your question.
The “feel” of the thread is not of someone trying to honestly figure out if $600 is worth it for training from Haley and friend, but maybe I’m just grouchy.
–
To eliminate any accusations of impropriety:
I have zero connection to Travis Haley, and M4Carbine.net is not trying to “protect” Mr. Haley beyond that of any company discussed here. If anyone has any question about that, feel free to talk to a Staff member about it.
Pot , meet kettle .
And FWIW listing prior experiance lends validity to review as we know the reviewer has something to compare to and what that is.
You might have a point.
Yes it does, but it also gives people an opportunity to show us their multicam (or maybe A-TACS) sash and all the cool patches they collected. How do we know which is which? It is a “look at me” world and everyone wants to be seen.
There are very few posters here, and on other forums, that will post an AAR that I will take at face value. I would be surprised if you weren’t the same way.
On topic, if the output of the class is directly related to what the student puts into it, how does one validate their input? If two people take the same class this weekend and are coming from different places, different skills, different work ethics, etc. Are they gonna get the same out of the class?
There are way too many variables to consider in evaluating an individual’s view of value beyond just price vs number of students.
Famous/infamous/notfamous instructor, course material, facility, experience/skill level of the shooter, the list could go on and on.
But to answer the op specifically, I have been disappointed by being one of 24 students on a line in a class that was advertised to have 16 max. I didn’t feel like a deserved a refund though.
ETA: There was only one instructor, no real AI’s.
Evaluating a potential class based on price and class size alone is risky territory. Without at least some direct input from someone who has been in or observed the class directly, how do you judge the value of the instruction? Making judgments on the value of a class to me based on someone else’s report is a tenuous position from which to start, so some background on the reviewer’s experience is helpful, but still not everything. Very few reviewers are going to come out and list their personal biases at the beginning of a review (“I hate the gamerhomo longarm stance but begrudgingly took the Magpul class anyway because it was the only thing local this year…” is going to be a tipoff).
Regarding student:instructor ratio, I will at admit at first pass the idea of 22+ guys on the line at once, even with 2 instructors, sounds a little on the high side, but what if they’re running it in two relays of 11 shooters on the line at once? 11:2 is a pretty good ratio. If the class is a fairly high round count class (more reloading and grabbing mags), or one with more physical activity (time to catch breath and grab a drink), that could be an efficient way to run the class with more total students but still with lots of direct instructor oversight of the shooters.
Ultimately it’s every student’s responsibility to research a class as best they can before cutting that check and make that value judgment for themself. Just like we do with every firearm, accessory, or piece of gear, everyone has to weigh the pros/cons and practical application of a class against their individual needs and expectations.
It doesn’t need to be an AAR for people to do that stuff.
It can be a thread on stippling and people will talk about how it worked for them at said class. And even that may sometimes not be bragging, but rather allows poeple to quantify how the said item/modification was used.
Some people have egos and the internet brings that out. I don’t see it as a reason to hate on AAR’s though…
My response is in bold.
F2S,
You’re miss-reading the intent of the thread.
Whether he’s worth it or not is for each individual to decide. By no means does that take away from his abilities or teachings.
IMO, at some point we do have to weigh in all aspects of the training, meaning cost, material covered, level of other students, number of students etc…etc… and make a personal decision as to whether the entire event is worth the cost and personal time invested.
Again that’s all this is about. I would love to train with the man, but not under the current conditions. This has nothing to do with him or his ability. I feel I could not maximize my return on investment with 22 or 25 other shooters.
Lets’ face it, some individuals that are star truck with the man would probably pay $1000.00 and attend a class with 50 shooters. Would you still feel like you’re maximizing your return on investment then??? If you do, well then more power to you. I’ll stick to a more individualized training regiment.
That’s what I was trying to ask of others, at what point do you feel like you’re not getting your return on investment. Maybe I could have been more clear about it.
Which class was this? Was I there?
C4
Who the instructor was is not important, but yes you were there.
And to be fair, there were some students drafted to be AIs who were more than competent, but it was still a big assed line that was bigger than advertised.
Again, I was a little disappointed, but still had a very good time and learned from a great instructor.
Back to the OPs point, was it worth the money based on the student to intructor ratio? In this case it still was.
I feel that it is best if I bow out of this thread.