I was checking out Haley Strategic’s schedule, classes offered, time frame, cost’s, you know the standard information anyone usually looks for.
As I scrolled down I’m see the cost for a 2 day Adaptive Pistol One course is $600. and as per the info on the site which is a forum, each class will have 22 to 25 shooters and 2 instructors.
So what do you guys think of the cost for a 2 day class and the number of shooters attending? Would this peek your interest? I’m curious.
R.
That’s about what a Magpul class costs and about as many students, they sell out almost every class they put on and everyone leaves happy. Even with 20 some odd shooters I still got plenty of personal advice from both Chris and Steve, and I’m sure Travis would be just as attentive.
Guys like Travis, Costa, LAV, etc… could charge WAY more and still fill up classes. Look at Costa’s Facebook page, it’s full of psycho’s asking if he’s hiring for “Costa’s Bitch” and swinging from his nuts.
I can’t afford to travel much for classes so I stick to what I can drive too. If Haley Strategic came within that distance I would definitely want to go.
I usually aim to pay about $200-$250 / day for classes, although I paid more for some. I also dislike the disproportionate student/instructor ratio. But it’s all about running a business. At the very least I try to take classes that have an AI if the number of students exceeds 20. Not all “top tier” instructors have one…
Also, you do pay for the “name” of the instructor whether in tuition or class size.
Is it worth it? Maybe. While some instructors definitely have invaluable experience / insights to impart, they may not necessarily get to share it with the class. Also, there are only so many ways to skin a cat and do basic weapon / trigger manipulation. So at the end it all boils down to whose presentation/personality/experience you like, how much you want to pay, and how much of a bad ass you think another person’s experience will make you.
Two years ago I took a carbine class from USSA that was 90% similar in curriculum to VTAC Carbine 1.5, yet cost less and had only 9 students vs VTAC’s 25 students and higher price.
At this point I have become somewhat jaded, and try to look for classes that offer a good value or are taught by instructors whose material I want to refine further or heard really good things about.
I agree with Andy T.
I don’t begrudge anyone that charges what the market will bear. More power to Haley. But I don’t think you can call it a good value.
You know a high-profile outfit like Haley or Magpul with lots of fanboys due to their slick DVDs or somebody that’s a living legend (and has his own TV show) like LAV are going to be able to charge more than the ‘regional’ guys. Or maybe it’s the Grey Group Effect – (I think Falla had just branched off on his own and should have been unknown, but already he was making everyone’s “must train with” list.)
They may be great trainers, but they aren’t the place to look for great value. (This is not the knock it might first sound like. BMWs are great cars and may be worth the price, but rarely are they considered great values.)
You can find accomplished teachers that can outshoot those guys that charge less for smaller classes. (They may not have SOF backgrounds, and Paul H won’t take your photo and post in any AAR on this forum, but you’ll get good training for less.)
More than the tuition per day, I’d look more at the number of students. I took a pistol class that was supposed to be capped at 16, I think, but swelled to 22 or so because the host didn’t want to turn anyone away. At that point it is difficult for the instructor to provide much personalized attention and instead was more of a drill leader and RO. I would have rather been charged a bit more and had the class size smaller.
At this point in my shooting development, the next money I pay for instruction will likely be for private or semi-private class. Obviously, the better you are the less beginner gains you’ll make. If you know next to nothing you might still get a lot out of a 20 person class. Once you reach a certain level, you may have to fork out for more personalized attention.
Andy,
All really good points.
Comprido, you nailed it!!!
I had a conversation a few years back with someone about training and how we were both a lot more picky about who we would train with due to the cost of things. This was about the time when prices for training was going up as was the price of ammo. All of it was tied into each other, and even though we would have loved to train with a lot of different instructors, paying really high prices for pretty much the same thing was not an easy decision to make when picking a school. Which is a shame because everyone has there little bit of information that one can always put in their tool box. I would love to Train with Travis, but I just don’t see it with those size classes.
I know some will say that you can still get good value etc… etc… again, I think Comprido said it best.
You’re so right about there’s only so many ways to skin a cat. If I’m going to spend all that money I REALLY want an instructor that will push me out of my confort zone, not just cover what I already know. It’s always good to have someone look over your fundamtals and basic manipulations, but after one gets to a certain level, one doesn’t really don’t NEED another one of those classes. Personally, I don’t want to spend 3 hours learning how to zero and zero my gun, or go over what a mechanical offset is and how to shoot with it at different distances. All that is great info and a must know, but after a while it’s time to take the next step in training.
I few years ago I attended a by invitation only class with Frank Garcia. The 12 shooters or so guys that attended were all highly capable shooters highly trained guys with years of experience under their belt. Everyone was either a SWAT, former SWAT, contractor or former military SF. It was a GREAT class. Right out of the gate Frank had us shooting the shit out of our guns. It was big boy rules apply, if we needed ammo or to reload, you did it on your own, there was no hand holding, there was no babysitting. It was all about the business of shooting and how to shoot. He took me out of my comfort zone and it was great class.
If I’m going to pay big bucks for a class, that’s what I want. I want to perform the fundamentals under duress, under speed, very demanding circumstance.
Let me ask some of the other Industry Professionals here, do you really think that can be done with 25 shooters of various skill levels? I don’t know. I think it can be done with guys of similar skills but a large open class, I don’t know. What say you???
R
That seems high to me IMHO. That is a good bit higher than LAV, Defoor, Mac, Panone, Smith, Tiger Swan and many others for a two day.
I also respect the bios of those guys a lot more than Haley. Thats not a slight on Haley, its more of a testament of the background of those guys mentioned.
Often times the facility will jack up the price slightly but that seems very high especially based upon the amount of students which is a turn off to me. I generally like to see a class fill at the 16-18 level. I would have zero interest in a class that big at that price point. YMMV
As a comparison LAV’s 3 day at Blackwater is only $750 and part of that cost is because the range fees are high at Blackwater, his two days are generally $450-500 with a class size in the middle to high teens.
Sadly I think you see a lot of fanboy/man crush in that pricing.
FYI: Be on the look out for Northern Red who will be under the Grey Group umbrella. JD (former Tiger Swan instructor and director of training) is a hell of a teacher and has assembled a hell of a cadre that will be running some great classes. I will be at their invite only class this weekend and will post an AAR next week.
Actually that is almost exactly what TigerSwan charges for a two day, it would appear - and that is with an adjunct instructor.
Yeah, I guess you are right, the last Pa class was $575 with two heads and a class about half the size. My understanding from the last class was that there was a tremendous level of one on one coaching and diagnostics. But my bad, I thought I remember them being right around $500.
Makes the Ken Hackathorn Home Defense class at $450 a real bargain 
It’s difficult to maintain a healthy profit margin, pay for insurance, gas, hotel rooms, range fees, targets, safety equipment, food, medical supplies, etc, etc AND have an assistant and keep prices at a “low” level. Everybody wants to be paid. Add to that the “fame” that the instructor has, and it’s easy to fill a class, even at those prices. It isn’t the highest I have seen, but it is on the upper side.
Look at it this way: if you are going to instruct a class with an assistant/adjunct instructor, and you can either have a class of 22 at $300 each, or a class of 22 at $600 each, with a garanteed full class, which way are you going to choose? These guys are in a position that they can charge that much and still fill classes. It’s the nature of the beast.
$600 bucks to be one of 22+ students with Haley at nowhere special ?
Im not paying it.
We just had TS here in PGH, and we had 2 instructors for 11 students at $575
so, thats twice the instructor:student ratio at just under the price.
My understanding is they follow a 8:1 , send a 2nd after 12 and will send 3 instructors at 16 students.
Those guys where excellent instructors. One of the best handgun courses Ive taken.
You sir, are hilarious.
I think everyone gets that, and so far no one is begrudging Haley for charging what he charges. I suspect we are all free marketeers here.
We are just discussing whether we think it’s worth it.
I’m not making that up, the other day some one asked him if he could be his bitch.
Chris takes the time to respond to his Facebook page personally which I think is really great, but I have no idea how he does it.
And this may not be optimal, depending on how he runs his classes currently. One of two classes of his I took, he had high teens as a single relay for just about entire day 3 class. Not a lot of individual attention. I’d pay more for a smaller class size.
To OP: 600 for 2 days with two instructors could be fair, or could be too much - all depends on quality and experience of second instructor/AI. When somebody says “Haley”, I hear “a Force Recon Marine with combat experience who apparently knows how to teach.” Subsequently, this is a level of expertise and experience that I expect in instructor, and if AI is not up to par, then I am upset. This also ties into an instructor/student ratio. 25/2 could be OK, if both instructors are high-level and pay enough individual attention.
It’s proven every time the check is signed.
Don’t get me wrong, I think the thread is completely ridiculous. This is the second “value” thread that popped up, and it seriously makes me question the maturity level of some participants.
That doesn’t prove it to me, as I’ve never written Haley a check.
Just because a product has a buyer doesn’t mean it was worth what the buyer paid. It proves that the participant thought it was worth it at the time he signed the check. Sometimes you only find out later you overpaid, or there was a better product out there.
And since I’ve never written Haley a check, by your logic every class of his that I and everyone else doesn’t attend and doesn’t pay for proves that his class is overpriced (Rubbish, of course.) But just because 24 folks sign up for a class doesn’t mean its the best use of my finite time and money. Ever heard there’s a sucker born every minute? Not saying you are a sucker for paying for this class, but showing you that just because there is a buyer doesn’t mean it was a smart purchase.
(By now you’ve seen the Trident Fitness video discussed here. https://www.m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=11 Those guys wrote checks for training, too. Does that prove it was a good purchase? Absolutely not. I think the point should be clear by now.)
So would you pay $10,000 to train for two days with (insert your favorite instructor here) with 21 other people when you can train with other accomplished trainers for less money and a better student-to-teacher ratio? No? Then you agree with me that training can be overpriced.
We are just trying nail down where the best return on investment is. How you spend your time and money are simple economic decisions that you make every day. We are only discussing out loud the same decisions you make every time to decide to or not to attend a training class, and there’s nothing immature about it.
What do you find completely ridiculous? the thread? If so Why?
R
I suspect that given the amount of emotional investment people have in some schools, methods, and instructors trying to place any value on one particular class and compare it to another is a waste of time (that would be better spend surfing porn or something).
If I’m understanding you right…you’re right.
Its late and I’m tired.
R