To sling or not to sling?

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Guys,

I am nowhere near as hard core as many of you here on this forum. This is the forum I go to when I want serious questions answered or when I want serious opinions on the AR15/M4 weapons system.

After joining this site, I became convinced that I should put a two point sling on my “go to” rifles…so I bought a VCAS and have talked my friends in to getting them too.

So here’s the thing:

I just did another carbine class on Saturday…my third. It was my first class with this particular company: Progressive Force Concepts out of Las Vegas.

Great instructors. Great training.

They were very “anti-sling”. They said that slings certainly had their uses, but that they were potentially too much trouble. They gave various examples. One of which was how the sling can be used against you by an attacker. (Just like cops wear clip on ties so they don’t get choked to death, slings are just big “grab on handles” for bad guys.)

Although they made a few good points, I’m not sure I agree with their view on slings. Maybe it’s because I’m so used to my sling now…it’s hard for me to think about ditching it.

We did transition drills…and I purposely did mine without the sling (just to see how it went). It felt fine.

I’m not a sucker for everything that I hear. That’s one of the reasons I’m typing this post. I’d like to read what you guys think and mull it over for a few weeks. I’m scheduled for another carbine class with MDTS in July…so I’ll do some experimentation.

2

Most hear will agree that a sling is a necessity. I really think they are important for a gun which you will be hunting with, or if you are a law enforcement officer (I could not imagine not having a sling on my issue gun). I do not think they are required for a stand alone home defense gun but that is my opinion only.

I do know from some study (reading) that for along time, probably to this day, the SAS does not use slings on their weapons for anything but dynamic entries, though this information might be outdated now. When I read that the SAS operator who wrote it explained that it was a mindset thing, and the point of it was to ensure they disciplined themselves to always have their weapon in hand and ready to fight.

So in short, for HD no, for nearly everything else I say yes. And if they grab you sling, there will probably be enough slack in it for you to move the weapon into a position where you can shoot them.

3

Well I would like to throw my two cents in on this one. I do not use a sling for my home defense shotgun, but find it an absolute must for my work M4. After having to transition to my 1911 on more than one occasion I find it critical to still retain control of my carbine.

I would be curious to know how you “transition” to a handgun in a fight with their instruction. Im sure they are good at what they do so not trying to discredit them but I don’t understand that.

All the instruction I have received in the Military and everything I have experienced is that should I have a malfunction or run dry with the enemy closer than say twenty-five yards I transition to the pistol. Its just been quicker from what I have seen. Clearing a malfunction can take life changing seconds, where pulling the pistola is quicker.

just my thoughts

4

A sling is a weapon retention system. For me I have slings on all my guns even my home defense. I feel that any point in time with home defense you might need to let go of the weapon and grab other things like family members and lived ones. To me it let’s you retainthe weapon in that situation and if the need arises to grab it again it s right there. I think the only time you should not have a sling is a 3 gun competition where you have to let go of the rifle rapidly to use the handgun or shotgun.

5

There are various retention techniques for the carbine or shotgun that result in a transition to handgun where you are firing strong-hand-only. They work about as well as your skillset when shooting strong-hand-only. They are good tools to have in the box for various reasons.

The subject of slings comes up from time to time. I think that many instructors are just looking to be different and make a name for themselves by being different.

Yes, someone can manhandle you (or try) if your carbine is attached to your body by a sling. Why is he that close to begin with?

FWIW, my home use carbine has no sling but only because I figure that if I need a carbine things have gone horribly awry and I need it rightfuckingnow and a sling is something I’m not going to have time to put on and a dangling sling to me is worse than no sling.

6

I agree 100% being a civilian and not having a secondary with my HD setup if I grab my carbine or shotgun I have a single point sling already attached to it so it only takes a fraction of a second while I’m up and moving to throw it on. Again since it’s for HD and that means things must have been bad to grab it I want it attached should I slip and fall on kids toys or pump into furniture rushing to secure my family. If i would loose or drop my weapon or have to grab my kids and run I still want the weapon attached. In the civilian world with everything I’ve seen the odds of every running into to someone with enough training to grab your sling and try to subdue you means that all your practice and training has gone out the window and you let the Bad Guy get close enough to grab you without dropping him. Just my .02

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Do you think it is realistic that you will have a secondary firearm to transition to?

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I think you might, it really depends on what you’re doing and what you’re preparing for.

In an oh-dark-thirty moment as a homeowner? Probably not. As a homeowner that’s been without power for 4 days finding myself with a front yard full of undesirables that I’d like to discourage in the strongest possible way? Absolutely yes.

this is why my oh-dark-thirty gun has no sling, but the post-hurricane gun does. :smiley:

9

Of all the potential worries in life, the possibility of a dude who has busted into my house strangling me to death with the sling of my rifle has to rank pretty much at the bottom of the list, somewhere between figuring out how to gently break it to Kate Beckinsdale and Heidi Klum that I can only really satisfy one eternal love slave and being turned into a newt.

There’s a reason why a lot of very switched on people who used a rifle as a means of self defense regard slings as necessary bits of kit. Granted the average home owner responding to the odd noise at night may not have a lot of immediate use for the sling at that moment, but it’s still good to have on the gun. The sling can always be S-folded and rubber-banded to keep it out of the way when not needed and yet readily accessible should the need for it arise.

10

Agree.

I like the idea of having a sling attached to the carbine, but banded to it. For a bump in the night I think you are going to grab a weapon and go. For an event as you describe it is much more realistic to be a bit “jocked up.”

I hear weird things from people sometimes, and I now ask them to realistically consider what it is that they are saying.

11

LET ME SAY FIRST: THE TRAINING BY THE PFC FOLKS WAS TOP SHELF AND VERY PROFESSIONALLY PRESENTED. EXCELLENT TRAINING AND WORTH EVERY PENNY/ MINUTE SPENT.

I was also in the class this Saturday and have to say that the discussion about the slings by the PFC folks caused A LOT of the students some confusion.

I think there are a couple reasons for that. One is that there is such a marketing and internet forum chatter frenzy about them (things like which are good, what type, etc.) that it’s almost become a given that a sling is a mandatory basic item for your platform.

I was in the Army many moons ago and all we had was the standard issue black strap that ran front to back and the primary function of that item was to carry that weapon in an administrative posture. Yes some of us used it to help with shooting but the vast majority did not. Hence the idea that PFC suggests is that the only reason slings exist is because they don’t make a holster for a rifle.

All that being said I think that there IS some usefulness for slings in certain environments (as PFC also suggested) but those are limited. The problems surrounding slings in PFC’s opinion is that they can create more havoc than they solve. For me (and yes I use my carbine professionally) the vast majority of the time the only use my sling gets is when we are all standing around either getting briefed, or after operations but before I put my weapon back in its carrier or when I’m on a range listening to the instructor.

In other words: while in an admin posture.

I have been carrying and using an M16/ AR platform since 1979 and I can not think of a single time when I thought my sling was a mandatory item for my weapon system while in a combative mode. In fact there has been several times when my sling ended up being a pain in the ass.

So yes, you read correctly; I have a sling on my current weapon. I don’t perceive it as mandatory, but we spend a lot of time standing around waiting, briefing, listening, and whatever type admin stuff so the damned thing is VERY helpful.

The other thing that should be considered is that when the PFC guys demonstrated the sling being a point where a bad guy can latch onto you, did you notice they did not show you what to do about it?

I found that to be disturbing. If I show/ demonstrate a student how they can fail I have an obligation to give them a tool to fix it. Their solution was to tell you that the way to fix it was to not have a sling in the first place, well by then its too late because the bad guy already has you. The first thing that came to my mind in that demo was to pull my secondary weapon (handgun) and fix the BG. Of course that assumes I have that handgun and it also assumes that the student is training with that mindset.

There are many many what if’s in the world and my only real point is that PFC’s position to dismiss slings across the board is nothing more than their opinion. It’s an informed opinion but an opinion none the less. Some folks will agree with it some will not and the argument will be nothing more than the whole, 9mm vs .45 thing.

I say if you have a sling, want a sling, like a sling for what ever reason; get it. Train with it. And decide whether that sling solves more of your problems or does it complicate your circumstance.

I for one use a sling prolifically and mine does not hinder my ability to transition to my reaction side or any of the other examples given by the PFC trainers and if a BG ever latches onto me by my sling… I have an answer for that.

And besides, if I didn’t have a sling I would have to lean my rifle against something to hold my coffee cup and my donuts…HA!:smiley:

GUYS THAT LAST PART IS A JOKE.:smiley:

12

I think PFC’s reason to go slingless, is pretty lame if you ask me. As many have said, why is the bad guy so close in the first place, especially if your weapon hasn’t malfunctioned and has a full mag? It is very easy (at least for me) to “parry” and block with the weapon and provide numerous chest or face thumps, butt strokes, shoot, or draw your secondary, and or tertiary (Knife) depending on the circumstances, with a sling still attached.

Out of curiosity, do LEO’s get “pugil” type training with their long guns?

13

I’m thinking I need a rail or sling attachment for my HAK sheath. :smiley:

14

Additional input is above in Blue text.

Guys the reality is ANYTHING can happen. Especially at night, or in a confined space or when you are caught off guard. The PFC guys made it VERY clear and I agree that the use of “never,” or “always” are words that will jump up and bite you in your ass.

The discussion of the slings is no different than the milieu of arguments about any single item of gear. There is no across the spectrum correct answer to right and wrong.

Not all your kit will work for you in all circumstances. All things are trade offs or critical decision commitments.

I use a sling for many reasons. There are many reasons not to. So I make a choice based on my training, experience and environment and roll with it. When it’s going south on me I suck it up and make it work.

15

Not being dismissive of their thought process, just thought it was lame. I agree with much of what you said, having thought out the various scenarios, before you even wrote it. The old Infantry adage, everything is situationally dependent.

I have no doubt, “if” you could latch on to me that the struggle, wouldn’t be easy, but…trust me when I say, you won’t be gaining the upper hand at the end of that scenario.:wink:

16

For my duties as a LEO I always use a sling except when sighting in from a bench. If I’m shooting the sling is a none issue but the other 99.9999999% of the time it’s a huge benefit and for me, mandatory. My home defense rifle also has a sling since that is what I’m familiar with. I’m not laying my rifle down to carry a child or move an injured family member. Since I’ll more than likely be in boxers and not carrying a secondary I’m sure as shit not losing my only weapon.

17

If someone is close enough to you and going to man handle you, they will try and maybe succeed with or without you wearing a sling. To be honest, I think they are a necessity. Why do we need holters for sidearms? For me, in LE, a sling must be used. Not gonna lay my rifle down to go hands on with someone. Not gonna lay my rifle down to help my injured partner or someone else. Not gonna throw my rifle over a fence or wall before I climb over it. Yes a BG can strangle/hurt you with your sling. He can also hurt you when your hands are full of rifle or when you drop your weapon on the deck in a fight. Nothing is perfect.

I know I’m coming from a LE point of view but put yourself in a HD scenario where you may need to do other tasks while armed. That’s why we use holsters and slings.

18

I think from a risk-benefit perspective, and assuming one is competent and comfortable using a slung weapon, I’d look at the probability of a BG strangling you with your sling versus the probability of taking an unslung firearm from you. I do not recall seeing any stats on the former and would assume the probability to be very low compared to latter.

19

When you grab your pistol off of your nightstand to respond to a bump-in-the-night, are you wearing a holster?

20

[QUOTE=rob_s;644240]

FWIW, my home use carbine has no sling but only because I figure that if I need a carbine things have gone horribly awry and I need it rightfuckingnow and a sling is something I’m not going to have time to put on and a dangling sling to me is worse than no sling.

Also to take in consideration is the noise it could cause trying to deploy the sling all be it small if you had an intruder that was in the next room or the hall way. Every other possible situation I can think of I would want the sling being used. If did find my self with a scuffle over the rifle I would prefer to be in the sling for the added retention.