I am a 18 yeaR LEO (currently a detective) in So Cal, and recently decided to put together an active shooter vest. I have a lot of shooting and armorer experience. Based on threat reasons I will not bore you with, I wanted it to be a hard plate vest. I have Colt 6920 for duty use, and take active shooter/terrorist threats seriously. If the call comes in, I will go. I found a vest carrier that would take my dept issued level IIIA soft armor, with hard plates pockets over those. I chose a set of 10x12 plates that were advertised as titanium level III stand alone. They were made by International Armor. The online vendor I was buying them from was a different company, but I looked at International Armor’s website and they seemed “reputable”, although I had no prior experience with their products. I bought the plates.
A short while later, I showed the plates to a guy I know who works for Kelly Space and Technology. He does r&d on armor, and I’ve seen stuff he built that will stop .50 BMG. He has a test facility and can shoot stuff for testing. I showed him my vest and he sadly informed me that my plates were not titanium. One of their materials specialists confirmed it. Thus began a big fight with the vendor. They did not want to refund my money and referred me to International Armor. I was furious and told them that they had taken my money, not IA. The conversation did not go well. I finally did call IA and talked to a sales guy. His final explanation was that they initially called the plates titanium, even though they weren’t,and that “the name just kinda stuck, so we kept it for martketing”. Holy @%*#! He also alluded to the plates being marketed to alot of overseas government military contracts. We finally worked out an agreement where I would return the plates to the vendor, and he would reimburse them. He tried to upgrade me at his cost to other plates, but I told him I did not trust anything they put out.
Before returning the plates, my friend and I shot them with some 147gr 7.62 NATO rounds. They were listed as level III stand alone, multi hit capability. The first round flattened and tore up the plates pretty well, but the the plate stopped it. Second round went right through. I sent the plates back and got credited. The staff at the vendor were much more agreeable than when I initially talked to them, but I had calmed down alot myself. One lesson I had learned was that if it seems to good a deal to be true…buyer beware. Especially if you really plan on taking the gear into harm’s way.
Just wanted to inform other users that may be looking at armor.
Great info! Sounds like a little bit of contracting fraud going on. Makes you wonder how many millions there making off the military for their defective plates and even worse the lives there putting at risk! Personally, I’d be contacting another federal agency and relaying that info!
When I said he talked about selling to overseas government military contracts, I should have been more specific. He was talking about foreign government military. Doesn’t make it any better, I know, but being a US military vet, I would’ve been even more pissed off than I was. My buddy at Kelly Space is also a vet, with Spec Ops experience. As it is, we’ve been debating contacting NIJ, as they set armor certification and testing standards.
Not telling you what they are made of is dodgy but if the vendor was marketing them as standalone they are the one’s who screwed up. Says “in conjunction with a Level IIIA Vest.” No doubt someone screwed up. Did they ever say what they were made of?
I was trying to leave the vendor out of this but…look at the DSG Arms web site. These same plates are there, obviously International Armor, and they say “stand alone”. Let me be clear that DSG has made good on the return of the plates.
As for the IA website listing the plates, they have since changed the wording on their website regarding the plates. It now says “titanium/steel” plates, which seems to mean a combination of. When i first looked at the IA website it said “titanium steel”, which I took to mean just titanium. The materials and ballistic guys at KST told me that the plates appear to have been just been made of a high grade carbon steel. The IA web site also previously said “or in conjunction with level IIIA armor”. The plates pictured have a different appearance than the ones on the DSG website. At the time I took that to mean they were slightly different plates, hence the difference descriptions on the respective websites. The plates did not demonstrate multi hit capability as advertised. Level IIIA soft armor behind them would not have made a difference in the 7.62x51 rounds defeating them, just a difference in the crushing/deformation or blunt force trauma behind them. That’s one of the factors in an NIJ level III or level IV rating.
I will be the first to admit I was taken in by “slick marketing”. And yes the buyer was clearly unaware of industry standards. I never claimed to be an expert on the particulars of hard and soft body armor materials. I have since learned alot and am continuing to learn. My purpose in this post was to warn others.
“Our Titanium/Steel combination Hard Armor Plates”
This makes it seem like the plates are part titanium, part steel (a combination of materials). They will claim “combination” is a term of art meaning it must be used with other armor.
I am not sure if it is legally fraud (probably not) but it is deceptive marketing.
When Titanium is used on clothing, one can assume it is a brand name or color. When it is used for a metal plate, it is deceptive if it is not actually titanium.
There are some schick razor blades which have titanium nitride coating and they call them Titanium. That is also deceptive, but titanium is a horrible blade material and they are only hurting themselves by associating their blades with it. Then again, maybe most people don’t know that.
Hmm, vendor is dishonest regarding plate construction and lies about protective ability; I think shooting the plates before returning them is reasonable given the circumstances–it certainly confirmed the fact that the vendor is not honest…
Is titanium really that weak of a material? Not being any kind of metallurgist I have always been under the impression that it is an incredibly strong material.
It’s lighter and more dimensionally stable (thermally) than an equivalently sized piece of mild steel. That’s why it’s good for aerospace applications. Steel armor plate is significantly stronger but weighs 40-50% more.
So what you are saying is it is a weight to strength ratio kind of thing with a high temperature tolerance. So then why are drill bits coated in Ti if steel is still stronger? Is it because of the heat generated by drilling?
I suspect (not being a metallurgist) that Titanium may also be somewhat brittle to sudden impacts? There are different kinds of stresses to withstand. A large lateral force trying to bend something is a lot different than a sudden strong impact. Just guessing here though.
A drill bit is thermal mostly, and friction, not a sudden impact.
Aye, strength to weight (density would be better term). It’s also very resistant to corrosion. Drill bits are titanium nitride (TiN) coated because it’s something along the lines of 85 RC, and keeps it’s hardness at significantly higher temps, but it’s also technically a ceramic not a metal.
I mentioned the thermal part because (for example) aluminum changes dramatically with change in temperature, titanium changes very little dimensionally (before it burns anyway), this is important for anything that has close tolerances. Like compressor blades in jets.
They do make armor out of it but I do not know details of the composition. The A10 Warthog has a titanium armored cockpit IIRC.
Alloys can do a lot that base metals cant. Steel has millions of different alloys. I’m not a metallurgist so I can’t tell you why it does this stuff though. I just make things -.-
It does, which is what lead me to believe Ti is a good metal for armor but you earlier answer of strength to weight explains it, given it is on aircraft.