Thoughts on Optics from the NRA Convention in Indy.....

Hi all,

I went to the NRA convention last weekend and wound up purchasing a Kahles K16i 1-6x from EuroOptic via Ken Pratt (SM1 reticule). Ken was a nice man and was very patient with me while I walked the floor and checked out a bunch of other scopes before I made my decision. I didn’t take any good quality pictures, as I only had my iPhone. However, I figured I could provide some comments from what I saw to those who are shopping around for a 1-6x style tactical scope.

  1. Vortex 1-6x24 Razor HD Gen II with a VMR-2 milrad reticule: A Vortex rep was at the EuroOptic booth, and Vortex had their own display. I really really liked this scope and came close to purchasing this over the Kahles. The Vortex is only 10.1" long, so it’s short, heavy and fat. It felt solid like a S&B short dot, and the weight did not really concern me. The red dot was nice and crisp, with no scatter inside of the tube. The reticule was also clear with well-defined markings in mils. I liked how the turrets could be turned by hand after the caps were removed, and they are also marked off like tactical turrets. The eyebox was large and the glass was fairly clear. Last, you can turn the illumination on or off between settings and it locks in place. The only reason I went with the Kahles was because I subjectively felt the glass was better enough to justify the price difference.

  2. Steiner Military M5Xi 1-5X24mm Rapid Dot Riflescope: The Steiner rep at the EuroOptic booth had a 5.56 version to look at. Steiner also had a display on the floor. The turrets were excellent as was the illumination control. The downsides are: 1. this scope is 11.6" long, 2. The reticule leaves much to be desired (as the windage markings are backwards) and 3. there was significant scatter of the red dot’s light inside the tube on daylight bright settings. I think this scope has great glass to look through with a decent eye box, but they need a different reticule. I was less than impressed with the illumination system and would definitely take the Vortex over one of these scopes for my purposes.

  3. Leupold Mark 6, 1-6x CMR reticule: Everything people said about this scope was true. It is well made and rugged. However, the illumination system scatters light inside the tube and you have to line up right behind the center of the reticule to see it clearly. The intensity of the illumination on 1x was either dim or very bright. I could not find a happy medium indoors at the convention hall. I felt the Vortex’s dot was far superior, as was the Kahles and VCOG’s over Leupold’s. They really need to figure out a way to provide for a nice clear dot or horseshoe on 1x, because their system does not do a good job as it is set up now. Otherwise, the glass was nice and clear and I like the way the CMR reticule’s elevation and windage compensation is set up, unlike Steiner’s. The reticule also includes a mil based scale for further ranging off to the side. Leupold’s website has a pdf file that explains this. Although the eyebox is smaller than its competitors, I think this scope is a good choice for those who will find themselves shooting out at a distance more with their rifle than needing a daylight bright illumination system for close range shooting. However, there are far better options out there to achieve the same thing.

  4. Trijicon VCOG 1-6x with a horseshoe reticule (red or green - I looked through both, along with the segmented circle reticule): So this is the scope that I waited for over the past year. This scope is the reason why I did not buy a S&B short dot or a Kahles 1-6x last summer. I wanted to wait and see what this scope would be like, as I loved my Accupoint. To start, the scope is very rugged in appearance and feels solid. The turrets are sealed from the elements, as is the AA battery housing. I think the nicest thing about this scope is that you don’t have to worry about leveling the tube in a set of rings. I like the fact that it mounts the same way as the ACOG does to an ACOG type mount. The glass itself is not that bad in terms of clarity and brightness. I would put it on the same level or just a micrometer below the Vortex Razor HD Gen II. However, it is not European level glass by no means. There are 6 illumination settings to choose from, and I found anything from 4-6 to be useful during daylight. Likewise, you can turn the illumination off, between the settings, which is a nice touch similar to the Vortex or S&B. I’m guessing setting 1 may be NVD compatible, but none of the reps could tell me for sure at the Trijicon display. Now for the reticules themselves: the segmented circle model tended to scatter light on settings 4-6. The scattering did not originate from the circle portion of the reticule, but from the crosshair in the center. So if I was buying this scope, I would buy the horseshoe reticule version over the segmented circle for that reason alone. The horseshoe, for whatever reason, shows up as a more clear and crisp reticule, without any sort of scatter inside the tube. On 6x power, you get the same bullet drop compensation grid as on the segmented circle model (minus the center cross hair). On 1x illumination, the horseshoe shows up real nice, almost like a dot. My only gripe about the scope was that the reticule is pre-set for a 7.62 175 grain SMK load and is not mil based. I guess you can learn the hold overs for your loads, but I would prefer a mil based grid of some sort. So why the Kahles over the VCOG? I really loved the glass more than the VCOG’s, the Kahles eyebox was much larger, the Kahles field of view on 1x was wider and because there was no price difference between the two at the show.

  5. Kahles K16i 1-6x with a SM1 reticule: The reticule was clear and crisp, even on the brightest illumination. It had zero scatter. The illumination is adjusted by a variable rheostat on the side of the scope, and while the knob does not lock in place, there is an autoshut off feature. Likewise, the rheostat does not adjust easily without placing a firm grip on the knob with two fingers. We’ll see if I can knock the knob around on my SCAR-17. The eyebox was huge and the FOV very wide. I guess the only downside to this scope is the lack of tactical turrets, but I really have no intent of using my SCAR-17 beyond 500-600 yards. It is a rare day where I can find a range that measures beyond 200 yards to begin with. I think this scope will work well for me at the 3-gun matches I attend and for hog hunting. My only concern is how well the scope will hold up to the SCAR’s recoil impulse. I purchased an ADM Delta mount for it, so hopefully it will work just as well as the Short Dot or Trijicon ACOG in terms of durability.

  6. Swarovski 1-6x24 Z6i gen 2 with ballistic reticule: Swarovski had a sort of fenced-in display designed to keep people away. Only one rep gave me the time of day when I walked in, despite the face I was very well dressed. Regardless, the Kahles beats this scope as I felt that the Kahles had a slightly larger eyebox and a much better adjustment mechanism for the illumination. I also don’t like the fact that the eyepiece is much more bulky on this unit, and the Kahles has a piece on the magnification dial that makes adjustments easier.

Other scopes of note:

Leupold Mark 8, 1-8x with the H-27D illuminated reticule: First, I’m just including this for comparison purposes. It is way out of my price range, but I can see why those with the funds have placed this scope on their Knight’s SR-25s and the like. The illumination system is better than the Mark 6, and it’s eyebox is not that bad. It has a smaller eyebox than say, a Vortex 1-6x or similar, but it’s acceptable, even with my eyes. Likewise, the 1.1x setting is pretty darn close to being 1x. What sets this scope apart from the others is the reticule on 8x power. This would be the perfect scope for a Knight’s ECC SR-25 for those 600-800 yard shots. The scope itself is built like a tank, and the turrets are well designed. I don’t think the clarity of the glass was as good as a Kahles or a S&B, but the feature set of this scope makes up for it.

Schmidt and Bender 1-8x24 scopes (close combat true 1x model vs. the 1.1-8x FFP model): So Mark Cromwell of Schmidt and Bender was there at the show, and he had 20+ scopes are the New England Custom Guns booth. It’s funny, because I had no clue that they were there until 4 hours after I purchased my Kahles. He was a very nice man, but seemed frustrated when I told him that these new S&B models were out of my reach price-wise ($3700+) and that I bought a Kahles. In a couple of years, I’ll try to make him feel better and buy one of his long range scopes. :smiley: So the close combat (CC) model is the one I liked the most. It was a true 1x, with a 2nd focal plane reticule. I don’t remember if the dot is FFP or SFP, but this is the scope I would have purchased for my SCAR if I had the funds. The glass was superior to the Mark 8, and I found the eyebox to be generous. Everything else is rock solid S&B, from the turrets, NVD compatibility. Very high quality scope. I would definitely take this over a Mark 8. The other model is a 1.1-8x scope that has a first focal plane reticule for long distance use. Since I can’t find myself shooting in-between magnifications beyond 200 yards (less than 8x that is), I prefer the CC model. Regardless, I think I could have justified spending < $3k for one of these scopes, but not $3800.

S&B 1.5-8x26 (on a 34 mm tube): If you don’t need a 1x scope, this scope is a much better option on a .308 DMR type rifle than the long range version of the 1.1-8x24 scope S&B is offering. The light gathering ability is noticeably better, and it has all the same features as the other PM models (turrets, etc.). I was blown away by this scope, and I would have had little issues placing this on my SCAR, despite the lack of true 1x capability. The price was just at $3000-3100 as well, which makes it a little bit of a better buy than the other 1-8x models. However, since it is not a true 1x scope, why not just buy a 2.5-10x42 Nightforce then? Or, S&B has a new 1.5-8x42 Stratos scope that replaces the old 1.5-6x42 model. Why not that scope for even more light gathering ability? Regardless, maybe their 1-8x scopes should have been built on a 34 mm tube, but perhaps there were German military requirements for weight and size, etc.

Leica Magnus 1-6x: NOPE. Not at the show. Unfortunately, they are still fighting a lawsuit with Swarovski, so no plans to release the 1-6x model in the USA. The Leica reps had a nice display and were quite nice though.

So there you have it. Sorry for the long write up, but I figured that it might be of assistance to those interested in these high dollar scopes. I guess I will take some flak for picking the Kahles over the Vortex or VCOG, but I really felt it was the best value for the money. Now I just need more time to shoot and not work 80+ hours a week.

Take care!

Interesting info, and thank you for posting your observations. I’m one of those folks that read, read, and read some more before buying an optic. So data points are always welcome.

Thanks for the update!

I also went to the 2014 NRA exhibit/show Sat.and looked at all the higher end 1-6x scopes that were there, then I also ordered and have since received a Kahles 16i 1-6x from Ken at the EuroOptic booth . I got the G4-b reticle . With my corrected vision and the distances it will be used at ( 0-400 yds), I believe the reticle should work okay. I got it (not the demo one) for $2050 delivered. IMHO, for now, the best value out there in a 1-6x is the Vortex Razor, its just heavier than some of the others. I also looked at the March 1-10x24 and the 1-8x24 scopes at the Kelby’s booth. Nice glass but the eye boxes were just to small for me at the top end. As for which mount for the Kahles, its between a Spuhr or a NF or Badger Uni-mount fixed mount or an Alamo Four Star or Bobro for QDa mount. I also would like the mount to be 1.5" inch high. If I was not in a hurry to get a scope, I would probably have waited to see what this new player brings to the table http://forum.snipershide.com/snipers-hide-rifle-scopes/248688-scope-market-inside-scoop.html or wait to see what new optics NF might introduce at SHOT 2015.

Field of view scope comparisons at 100 yds.

NF 1-4X - 100-25
Trijicon VCOG 1-6x - 95-15.9
Trijicon TR24 1-4x - 97.5-24.2
Leupold MK6 1-6X - 105.8-19.3
Vortex Razor 1-6x - 115.2-20.5
Swarovski Z6i 1-6x - 127.5-20.4
Kahles K16i 1-6x - 134-21.6
Leupold Mark 8 1.1-8x - 92-14.70

The velocity of the 77gr ammo I will be using (for now) is approx 2735 fps (out of 16" inch barrel)
Here is the ballistics Ken ran on the above load at both a 100 yard and 200 yard zero.
Zero @ 100 Yards
Line 1=300
Line 2=375
Line 3=430
Zero @200 Yards
Line 1=375
Line 2=425
Line 3= 490

I will personally be at the NRA show at the Euro Optic booth. Please stop by and have a look through the K16i. So far to date, I have not had a customer that was not able to adjust the scope to their eye. Even several shootings with Astigmatisms have been quite happy to be able to adjust the scope to their vision.

Regards, and please let me know if you have any additional questions or if I can be of additional support,
Ken

Thank you for taking the time to post this. I have been perseverating over a 1-6 or 1-8 variable purchase for about a year. I’ve been thinking the Kahles k16i with SM-1 is what I will buy, but recently had a friend offer his barely used demo Leupy mk8 1.1-8 with h27 and Leupy mk6 1-6 with TMR-D to me at dealer cost. I am thinking the mk8 at dealer cost is not something I can pass up. But even at dealer it is a very large expense.

Another thanks for the info from me! This is just the kind of information I’m looking for to find a replacement for the two awful US Optics SR-8 scopes I got.

You should consider also posting this in the stickied 1-()x optic discussion. Your post is most definitely sticky-worthy.

If you need something for a .308 rifle and need to hit stuff beyond 400 yards, I think the CQBSS with the Horus reticule is killer. The Kahles is a very good buy and the best of both worlds I guess. It is far more like a red dot on 1x than the CQBSS is for sure. Touch choice, and it depends on what your needs are.

Thanks for the kind comments guys. I meant to post this last weekend but ran out of time.

I didn’t even bother looking at those scopes after the reviews I read. The only reason I looked through a Mark 6 was because Leupold’s booth was along the way to Trijicon’s. I think EuroOptic had some US Optics scopes there, but I’m not sure if they had their 1-8x model or the new 1-4x everyone talked about. I am very happy with my Kahles, and I can’t wait to take it to the range.

Well, will the moderators let me?

Unfortunately, I didn’t read much other than what was posted here. Well, I ended up ordering a March-F 1-8x24mm as a replacement. Hopefully it works out!

Nice review MadAngler1.

Plasman, a review of the March would be great to see in the future. I’ve wanted a March Tactical 1-10x24 for a cpl. yrs now.

Yes, go ahead and add your posts into that thread. It’s additional data that people can use.

How has your March 1-8 worked out? Did you end up getting the daytime visible illumination? Any eyebox issues? Whatever thoughts/opinions you have on it would be greatly appreciated…thanks.