Thinking in Circles:Opinions and Help with New Rifle, Please

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Well, I hate to do this, but I’m at the point where I feel like I’m going in circles, and I really could use some helpful info to break the mindlock I’m in over picking a new rifle.

Here’s my thoughts so far:

With a lot of luck, I’ll be upgrading my AR soon. Based on a pile of research, I’ve decided I either want a Daniel Defense, or BCM. I know I could probably just flip a coin here, but there’s some other issues-

First, I’m leaning heavily toward a midlength. If I was going to stick with a carbine I would have grabbed a DD XV-EZ and been done with it. But based on what I’m seeing with my current carbine and what I’ve read, I think a midlength will suit me better, namely because I need more rail length.

Of the two brands, I’m torn between the DD M4V3, or BCM Mid16 Mod 2.
http://www.bravocompanymfg.com/AR15_BCM_Carbine_Rifle_M4_M16_MID_16_s/31.htm
http://www.danieldefense.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=207

Here’s why: (Not in order of importance)

  1. They both come with a rail- good. But I’m not sure I really want to get into free float territory with the DD just yet.
    I admit that I have limited experience in the area of these rifles, and at this time the drop-in on the BCM seems to be the better choice for ease of use (I won’t have to worry about fooling with the front sight at all either). Plus, it seems that any advantage I may get from a free float, I’m really not going to need for it’s intended uses.
    It also appears that both rails have QD sockets-also good. But on the BCM they are both front and rear. This seems likely to cause an issue when I go to mount a light. I don’t know if anyone makes light mounts that will go over this. My current mount consideration is Gear Sector.

2)They both come with rear sights- good. But I really don’t want a fixed sight like the DD- I really DO want the Troy (?) on the BCM.:smiley: Of course I could sell the DD sight and make enough to get the Troy…
I will be using an Eotech as my RDS.

3)Rear receiver QD sling attachment point- DD has it, BCM doesn’t. This is a very big issue, as I fully intend to use this method to attach a sling.
I could get a QD mount like DD’s installed, but I’m not sure I want to screw with the factory staking…
I could get a bolt-on QD mount, but so far they seem to either interfere with your face (could be a big issue), or cause the stock to be unable to fully collapse (minor issue).

4)Flared magwell- DD has it, BCM says nothing- I’m guessing they don’t? Apparently this is a well liked feature of DD’s rifles, that would be nice to have. Although, I haven’t had any issues yet with my current rifle as far as seating and release of magazines (running Pmags).
On a side note, one of my planned upgrades- the Gunfighter charging handle is already included with the BCM. Kind of a trade-off here, I suppose.

5)Price. This, for me is what it all boils down to in the end-the BCM seem like it will fit my budget better, overall. I know you’re getting a lot with the DD, but for the price of the BCM, I could get an MOE stock, bolt-on QD mount, and probably still have money left over…

So, opinions anyone?
Am I making any sense of this?
Just can’t seem to make a final decision either way…

My thanks in advance for taking the time to read through that wall of text.:slight_smile:

2

Sounds like the only point for the DDM4 is the rear sling point. That’s easily fixable, even if you pay a smith to do it, they should be able to properly stake everything when done.

Oh, wait, I forgot about the flared magwell. I haven’t worked with one, so I don’t know if it would be better for me. I haven’t found a problem loading pmags as long as you use a good (beer can or front-indexed) grip on them.

Buy the BCM, then spend a good bit on ammo, and save the rest of the cash - once you have the rifle, you’ll have plenty of needs for it.

What are you needs for the rifle? Both are great rifles, and should to a LOT without complaining.

3

Yeah, I’m pretty confident with either choice, it’s just which one at this point.
I’ll have to do some looking around, but I’m not sure that I have a gunsmith within 2 hours of me that I’d trust- that’s why I brought up the bolt-on QD option.
Intended uses are personal/home defense, pest control, and running through training classes without self destructing.
Should have said this before- my bad.

4

There are also a few stocks you can get with QD options, but I’d look into a magpul ASAP plate plus CTR stock… Or a UBR… They both lock up nice and tight, and have different sling and balance plusses and minuses. (one good thing about the UBR install is that you can do it at home without a stock wrench, and it is 100% reliable - ok, I don’t kick in doors personally, but it seems to receive a nice welcome out there…)

5

OP,

BCM will take PMAGs, no problem. No issues with the magwell being tight, either.

You may want to reconsider your choice of optic- the Aimpoint series, especially the Comp M4, M4S and T-1/H-1 series are vastly superior RDS type optics to the EOTECHs.

As for the sling issue, no experience with the DD, so can’t comment there.

6

Having BCM as your “budget” choice is a hell of a nice problem to have. just sayin. :wink:

Are you hell bent on buying a complete gun? If what you like about the DD is the lower, then buy a complete DD lower and stick a BCM upper on it.

FWIW, I like the 16" LW Mid over the standard. Complete gun or complete upper (add BCG and BCM GF Mod 4).

7

Listen to rob! Call G&R, get your DD lower, just how you want it, and order a BCM upper direct from while still on sale. Winning combo in my book.

8

I am actually planning on a CTR. I listed the MOE as a budget alternative that I could happily live with.

Yes, I have been hearing about the Aimpoints being a bit better than the Eotechs. The thing is , I already own the Eotech, so I figured I’ll just use what I’ve got.

:lol:Although it seems like anything “budget” in this area will never really be that.

No, I’m not set on a complete gun- I posted those links because A) you guys could see the whole package of what i was talking about, and B)I did some pricing originally, and it actually came out to more than the complete guns costs, if I would have built it seperately.
This obviously changes things. :smiley:

Couple more questions-
How long is G&R likely to have the DD lowers in stock?
Or if they go out, an approximate time to restock?
Just asking, because I’m going to have to sell my current carbine before moving on.

Is there any real huge advantage to having BCM’s BFH upper, as opposed to the standard/ lightweight?

Edit- On second look, add in the Troy BUIS, and a rail system, and it looks like I’m back up around the same/+ dollar amount as a completed rifle…

9

you really need to call or email G&R to answer questions specific to their stock. I got a complete BCM upper minus the hand guards for 589 shipped to my door. Add that to the lower of your choice and it is VERY competitive with complete rifles. I picked up a 6920 for 1204 OTD a month ago and I considered that a smoking deal before I saw BCM drop their prices.

10

Yeah, I thought of this after I posted previously.:sad:

As far as the rifle- I think I may try to go with a build after all- even though it’s going to end up costing around the same, I think it will actually fit my budget better, as I can slowly piece it together instead of spending one huge lump sum.

Can anyone give me an approximate difference between the lightweight and standard BCM uppers, as far as weight and options?
The writeup says nothing different on the site.
I could call them, but I’m in the middle of a family vacation and am running around like crazy (hence, the previous question about G&R).

11

The difference between pencil barrels and gov profile middy barrels usually sits at around 6 oz but the big difference in my opinion is overall balance of the upper. 6 oz hung out at the end of the gun feels like a LOT more than 6 ounces. Balance issues can sometimes be mitigated by stock choice but the tradeoff there is you add to the overall weight of the gun if you balance a muzzle heavy upper with a heavier stock.

12

Big +1.

I went from a Colt 6520 (pencil barrel) to a Noveske midlength. Overall weight difference was probably less than a pound, but its all out front. It completely changes the feel and balance of the gun. My next AR is deffinitely going to be a pencil barrel again, probably a BCM.

13

Standard upper

lightweight upper (.750" gas block)

14

Thanks guys.
Rob_s- Just out of curiosity, would you also happen to have a weight on the BFH upper?

15

I do not. I haven’t really bought into the current “hammer forged” trend.

16

I see.

One other thing- do any of the BCM uppers have triangular handguard caps? This is not a feature I necessarily want. However, one of the rail-handguards I was looking at (MI #18 ML) says it is designed for triangular caps, and some of the pictures of the uppers made it look like there was some curve to the hanguard caps. :confused:

17

Two quick thoughts:

I do not understand what you mean here, especially the bold part. What makes a nonFF rail easier to use? Why would you not have to mess with the front sight on the BCM, but you would on the DD?

Also, what price are you seeing for both? The DD can be had for $1200 give or take. I am not familiar with the price of the particular BCM you’re considering.

18

I don’t really know how you did your pricing, but it’s going to be cheaper if you buy the lower, upper, and rail system separately.

-DD lower receiver w/ 6-pos receiver extension, G&R Tactical LPK, buffer spring, and castle nut, Noveske QD end-plate, H-buffer, standard GI trigger guard, A2 grip, M4 stock - $364
-BCM midlength upper receiver group - $385
-BCM BCG and charging handle - $135
-Troy MRF-DI midlength rail system - $159
-Magpul MBUS BUIS - $55

TOTAL - $1108 excluding S&H

It’ll be even cheaper if you don’t buy the stock since you’re going to buy a CTR anyways. That’s one hell of a carbine for $1100!

Just asking, because I’m going to have to sell my current carbine before moving on.

What’s wrong with the lower on your existing carbine? You could save a lot of money just buying an upper receiver group and upgrading some parts on your lower.

One other thing- do any of the BCM uppers have triangular handguard caps? This is not a feature I necessarily want. However, one of the rail-handguards I was looking at (MI #18 ML) says it is designed for triangular caps, and some of the pictures of the uppers made it look like there was some curve to the hanguard caps.

My understanding is that all of the midlength uppers from BCM have triangular handguard caps. If you’re planning on using a drop-in rail, you’ll need those!

19

Well, from what I see so far, the non FF on the BCM would be easier for me because it just attaches in the way standard hanguards do. On the DD, it’s a free float- one thing I have read, is that some FF rails cannot be removed/installed over the front sight- I’d have to remove/re-attach it.
Now, I have seen some FF’s that can be easily installed without working around the front sight, and I’m sure I’d be perfectly happy with the rail on DD’s rifle. But if somewhere down the road I want a different rail, or need to perform some sort of maintenance, I’m not sure I’m confident in having to disassemble the front of the rifle.
Maybe I’m wrong somewhere here, but a non FF rail seems a more Murphy-proof choice for me. :happy:

As far as prices- off the top of my head, on Aim Surplus they list the DD M4 (carbine) for $1429. The DD M4V3 from my list is the same $ on Clyde’s Armory.
I haven’t seen much of the completed BCM’s- maybe I’m just looking in the wrong place. But on the PDF form on their site, it’s listed as around $1299.

Where did you see the above bolded lower?
That’s with the QD plate installed?

I think it may have been same as/more pricewise, because I added in all the extras I wanted- CTR/Troy BUIS/Gunfighter charging handle.

What’s wrong with the lower on your existing carbine? You could save a lot of money just buying an upper receiver group and upgrading some parts on your lower.

That thought did run through my head. I have seen a good few people around here that used Stag lowers on their rifles.
My assumption was that A) I’d still want the QD plate, and B) it might be easier to sell the rifle as a whole?

My understanding is that all of the midlength uppers from BCM have triangular handguard caps. If you’re planning on using a drop-in rail, you’ll need those!

So then if all BCM uppers have triangular caps, and both the MI and Troy drop-ins fit triangular caps, would it be safe to assume (ignoring my current lack of research in this area;))that most midlength uppers in general, assembled in this way, are going to have said caps?
In other words, I can’t see BCM stocking rails that won’t fit other brands of uppers…?

20

That is true of one piece FF rails. The Omega X is a 2 piece ff design. Loosen the 4 set screws that secure it to the barrel nut then remove the screws that hold the upper and lower rail portions together and it’s off. You only have to remove the FSB to take off the barrel nut. That’s something you have to do anytime you remove the barrel nut regardless of what kind of handguards you have.

Go to Clyde Armory, add the DDM4v3 to your cart, and the price will be $1179.