This was just recently brought to my attention, but it seems as tho a growing number of practical shooting clubs, mostly IDPA centric and on the east coast, are outlawing the proper,muzzle up reload for "safety concearns’.It started with indoor ranges which is a non issue to me, but has seemed to catch on with a lot of outdoor rural clubs. Gun games are useful for practical shooters becuase you get to work on relative marksmanship and gun handling under some degree of stress in a relativly safe way, and it’s a lot of fun too. If gun games start going along this slippery slope of comprimising core handling skills, what is left to be taken?It it really even practical shooting anymore?
This is not a new trend. Had an IDPA RO yell at me for muzzle up reload back in 2006.
This is my issue with “gun games.” They CAN create bad habits (like this one and many others).
You can create matches and drills with friends and fellow range members that do not instill bad habits (we do it all the time).
C4
Rather than the muzzle elevation, a more pertinent detail to be concerned with is the location of the index finger.
Do they also prohibit revolvers from being pointed skyward during the ejection phase of the reload?
I just roll with it. The once or twice I’ve even had an RO mention it at a match, I just made sure that I was dropping my forearm a few degrees more so that my “workspace” had the gun pointed more downrange instead of vertical. It’s not really a big deal IMO.
I think a lot of times people get caught up in having such a “picture perfect” workspace reload or manipulation of their gun, that they are trying too hard to replicate the technique as opposed to focusing on just actually doing what needs to be done to get the gun up and running again. Who gives a damn how it looks?! What I mean by that is, workspace is more a guideline of a consistent and safe method that is more performance oriented than previous, older methods. You don’t lose any cool guy points not doing a picture perfect “Magpul”(not that they invented it. I like them, but I say it in reference to the fanboy lemmings out there)/workspace/cool guy reload, and if it works it works. I see a lot of guys at the range with their carbines just blindly replicating what they’ve seen in training videos, without intuitively understanding the situation dictates what should be done. Example: I used to live in a bottom story apartment. My admin load for my carry gun involved me loading it and checking it with the gun below my waist and pointed at a downward angle; basically workspace in reverse. A perfect upward-facing workspace admin load would have been inappropriate and dangerous in that situation.
If local matches get to be too compromising, then invest in some range equipment, find a good group of local shooters, and setup your own private match days. Even if you don’t jump through the necessary hoops to turn it into a sanctioned match with an organization like IDPA, USPSA, etc. at least you can ultimately have control over it. Most of the range equipment doesn’t have to be too terribly expensive. Steel targets are the biggest expense.
That sucks to hear. I’ve only been competing for a year so at my local club, and we haven’t had anything like this yet. I certainly hope we never do. I compete for sole purpose of enhancing my own training, and if it starts going against the “right” way of doing things, I’ll have to quit competing and go another route.
The problem I have had is safety circle/ position Sul. I’ve been policing for 8 years and I have 6 years of swat experience, so needless to say, “safety circle” is pretty well ingrained into my noggin. Twice now I have been admonished for moving through a stage in Sul instead of pointing my weapon/ arm away and “down range” like I’m preparing to do a gangsta “run-by”. I totally understand that the rule is the rule, but it is hard to override hundreds if not thousands of hours of training for a game.
I’m familiar with position Sul & safety circle, but “workspace reload” is a new one on me and a Google search turns up this thread and a bunch of Microsoft junk. Who coined this term and what does it describe?
Also, are we talking rifle or pistol competition? A lot of ranges have muzzle rules, particularly with rifles. It only takes one or two really unfortunate rounds escaping a range to get the whole place shut down. Unless the max range of the gun is exceeded by the clear zone behind and to the sides of the range, this is bad juju. If range rules address this, violating those rules with a hot gun for “training purposes” is foolish. Use dummy rounds and dry fire techniques to work your 360 skills.
Pursuing realistic training to the point you’re violating range rules and the safety of those in the area is simply unacceptable. If that’s the case, you need to find a more secluded range.
As for the safty circle/position Sul, most competition rules are going to go against this. In IDPA, any shot triggered that hits the ground within 6 feet of the shooter is grounds for disqualification. I’ve only shot one sanctioned IDPA match where muzzle elevation during the reload was an issue. This was briefed prior to the match and was a safety issue due to nearby homes. It’s a significant issue with IPSC in some countries.
My local USPSA range is very perceptive to non-competition arena techniques.
I asked about my reload in the safety area before my first match. I detailed and demonstrated exactly how I do my reloads. The Match Director said he had no problem with how I do things provided 2 things: 1 never break the 180* 2 keep my booger hook out of the trigger guard.
1 is a given on any 1 way range
2 is a given on any range
I’ve noticed several guys do reloads the exact same way I do. As long as you follow both of those rules there is no possibility for an ND or a round going over the berm.
The training scars you get from following the gun game “rules” are not worth it.
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Before getting worked up over this and, show proof this is a actually a growing trend. There’s an old journalism saying, “Two is a coincidence; three is a trend.” The point is what is thought to be a trend is anything but. Some places have done this for a while, and despite some hysteria, it didn’t spell the end of competitions. It only gave some naysayers cause to repeat the tired “competitions will get you killed on the street” mantra.
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Ditch IDPA and just shoot USPSA. As I understand it, local range rules can’t trump USPSA rules. So reload how you want as long as you don’t break the 180, keep your finger out of the trigger guard and don’t send one over the berm.
Here we go again.:rolleyes:
Quantify your post or do not post.
Did you quantify yours? Do you have anecdotal or statistical evidence to show that adherence to competition rules has caused someone to get hurt on the street?
Quantify? I don’t think you used that word correctly.
But since you threaten to not allow me to post, I better try to guess what you meant. I think you want me to expound on my comment, no?
The question of whether gun games “will get you killed on the street” has been debated constantly since before gun forums on the internet existed. However, with your wisdom, help and input, this time I expect we can finally get to the bottom of it and reach a consensus.
So…here we go.
If you are going to respond to a post with some trollish comment, by all means do so, its good to know which posts not to read.
As for the subject of this thread, if you believe that not putting your pistol/rifle into your work space, muzzle up, is a good idea then more power to you. The rest of us will learn from your mistakes.
Personally, I don’t blame the game, but rather the ROs and organizers.
I have been to plenty of matches that didn’t care what you did as long as you didn’t break the 180.
I have also been to “tactical” ranges that didn’t permit drawing, more than one shot per second, or elevated muzzles, but that doesn’t stop me from going to the ranges that don’t have stupid rules, just like it doesn’t stop me from going to matches that aren’t run by idiots.
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OP, are you referring to the discussion in this thread on the Brian Enos forums? Muzzle direction during reloads
Your posts offer no more value than his unfortunately. 
You’re in no position to make that kind of statement.
Not that it matters, but one well-respected instructor related to me a story about a soldier in Iraq who got done working with his pistol and then instinctively went through the “unload and show clear” routine before holstering his empty pistol. He would have been walking around with an empty pistol had someone not pointed out his error.
Who did he “show it to?” In competition how fast you unload and holster isn’t the “timed” portion of the match. Timed portion would be from the timers beep to the last shot fired. That guy “let” the competition mess him up. I carry a gun daily. I don’t “unload and show clear”, until the RO says “if you are finished unload and show clear”, depending on his/her tone may be indicative that I forgot to shoot something… target feedback and how my sight pictures looked like determines how much the targets will get shot. In competition even under Virginia Count/Vickers Count (limited number of shots allowed on that course of fire) if I had a bad sight picture I’ll make up the shot even if it’ll cost me penalties, it’s instinctual for me to not accept unacceptable accuracy.
This is probably why I’m still a B class shooter in USPSA in Production and Limited and IDPA Expert SSP. I’d rather be penalized in a match instead of giving up accuracy for speed.
There are Tier 1 guys who are competitors BTW.