As I see it, there seems to be more focus on compact rifles globally than continued use of SMG’s in tight environments/CQB, in-out vehicle work, etc. There also seems to be less importance on the size of the weapon that accompanies compact rifles, in comparison to the smallest of SMG’s.
Is this trend here to stay, especially with the preference for standardized ammo/components? Has the SMG really become an ultra-specialized weapon as a result?
i think that the SMG evolved into the PDW… same size, more firepower.
I agree.
In the future I think we’ll see a lot more of the PDW concept.
FWIW I read somewhere that the SAS has adopted the new MP9 (B&T) as it’s new subgun.
Honestly I’m underwhelmed by the PDW concept especially with all these crazy weird calibers (4.6, 5.7, 6.5 etc.).
Essentially I’m not convinced by the concept as anything other than a specialized tool which is exactly what the subgun has become.
Essentially I’m not convinced by the concept as anything other than a specialized tool which is exactly what the subgun has become.
I agree, and in my opinion, think that these “PDW’s” are practically SMG’s.
Forces across the world don’t share the same views on SMG/PDW usage.
For defense…One side says that personell whose primary job is not to fire individual weapons need something bigger than a handgun yet smaller than an infantry rifle. The designated weapon can be anything from an Uzi to an MP7.
The other side says ‘Why bother with more platforms and ammo?’ Thus, this side decides to arm the personell with short barreled versions of the infantry rifle.
Who’s wrong? Who’s right? It’s neither or both.
For offense…Same thing, some forces across the world (sf, paramilitary, etc) are using SMG’s/PDW’s, whereas virtually an equal amount of forces are using compact rifles instead.
Wasn’t the German KSK using MP7’s in Afghanistan of all places? Whereas everytime I see pics of US sf’s in Afganistan they have a MK18 or so.
I think the SMG was dealt a serious blow in the realm of versatility when the intermediate rifle calibers started showing up. The bullpup rifle was just adding insult to injury. The PDW is the replacement for the traditional pistol caliber SMG. Thus, in my opinion, the stretching of the PDW’s capabilities to encompass a proper rifle that’s better suited for a given operating environment is just silly.
when assult rifles showed up for the first time in the 40’s and 60’s, their chamberings were crazy and new too. I think that the sub caliber PDW’s are retarded in every sense. However, ones like the KAC PDW are something else, probably here to stay. You have a weapon thats the size of a SMG but is effective out to 300m, vs what, 100m or less with something like an mp5? Eventually the crazy calibers will start to fizzle away and youll see some here to stay. Why use a SMG when you can have three times the firepower in something the same size? If given a choice between a SBR and a smg, i would take the SBR any day. More firepower no matter how you look at it.
If a PDW was superior in performance to an SBRd AR I’d agree with you, but what does the KAC do that an SBRd AR won’t? Having seen them both side by side, you don’t get much of a size or handling advantage though they are definitely smaller
All other things being equal (bullet mass/diameter), lower velocity = less damage. So there doesn’t appear to be any performance advantage over 5.56.
I’m not sure why subgun calibers are “retarded” but we can agree to disagree on that. Yes they’re for CQB but they’ve done a good job at that for many many years. The PDW doesn’t seem to be supplanting them for this purpose.
The cost and availability of ammo doesn’t seem to justify a switch…yet.
I’d take a .40 or 9mm MP5 over any of these recent PDW efforts and their wonky calibers.
John, i wasnt comparing a PDW to an SBR, i was comparing a PDW to a SMG, saying that a PDW would be a nice middle ground between a SBR and a SMG. However, I dont see what the SMG does that a PDW doesnt do better. The only reason i would want a PDW is because of the folding stock.
I understood what you meant, I should have been more clear. What I was saying was that an SBRd AR outperforms both the PDW and SMG at CQB as well as distance applications. So if you’re going to get rid of the SMG altogether (which is perfectly valid) why replace it with something that doesn’t do either job as well as an SBRd 5.56?
For the PDW concept to survive it must offer a qualitative advantage, and I’m not sure that it does, but I’m content to let the jury in the sandbox decide.
I’d be more interested in the PDW concept if it was a sidearm with a fully collapsible stock, but given the poor performance of PDW calibers in pistol length barrels I’d still prefer a pistol caliber like 9mm which would offer superior performance (with the exception of armor) out of the same size gun.
All of this may be a bit academic as once again shot-placement may be the key.
Here’s an interesting concept that I had no idea existed before 10 minutes ago when I started using google.
An Israeli bullpup conversion of an M1 carbine. I’ve personally always thought the .30 carbine cartridge was pretty underrated and that with modern technology I’m sure it’s even better.
http://www.securityarms.com/20010315/galleryfiles/2800/2803.htm
I don’t know if I like the bullpup configuration (I’m lefty) but I’d love to see another conversion kit to update the venerable M1 carbine. Personally I’d love to see the FN P90 as a .30 carbine. Ammo would be lots cheaper.
I could not agree more
IMO, the one place the SMG still reigns supreme is suppressed use. A subsonic 158gr 9mm is more potent than a subsonic 75gr 5.56mm.
delete
…An SMG being used in a …stealthy…raid!?
It’s contradictory. I thought the whole “in and out, quietly” thing belonged in the movies.
As far as I’ve understood, the Russians built the 9x39mm VSS Vintorez and VSK-94 for knocking out sentries “prior to a dynamic entry”. I guess that would make sense considering that a “stealthy-raid” is an oxymoron.
With the most positive words about the SMG being about how it’s easily suppressable, I’m surprised that the US military has never ventured into the “teppo jitsu” line of rifles.
Back to SMG/PDW’s, I can’t think of any situation/environment where an SMG/PDW would be better than a compact rifle…except for clearing a bus load of hostages with micro SMG’s???
How is that an oxymoron? I dont see where its impossible, i would think its been done before… then again though, im not an operator and my combat experience goes about as far as unlocking all the guns in COD 4 :rolleyes: 
I don’t doubt that there are forces who’ve done such things. The Israelis sure have a knack for suppressed 9mm SMG’s for example. But I found the idea of soldiers breaching to reach a target in unconventional warfare while maintaining an attitude of discretion through ultra quite weaponry to be a little odd. Then again, I also am not a sf member/operator/ghost/whatever/etc.
i dont wanna get off topic but, that part in munich really stands out in my mind; where their in the middle east and they walk up to that compound and blow the guards brains out and then shoot the rest of the place up with suppressed uzi’s i think?
Grant’s KAC PDW thread in the general discussion had some interesting comments from Doc on this…
Moving this thread to “Other Assault Rifles.” Carry on…