No group is more pro 2A than Libertarians, so I not tracking there. Being pro choice, is an obvious result of the general Libertarian philosophy, but there have been some who split from the larger Libertarian group who oppose it. Ron Paul, probably the Libertarian (big L) most people know, does not support abortion other then in extreme cases, such as rape etc I recall.
Yes, thank you. Some “L” libs have espoused a flakiness on the 2A which I think someone earlier mentioned and I was aware of Ron Pauls position, which I believe, stems from his Christianity. But isn’t the Lib party basically pro-choice?
I’d say yes, but again, with some caveats that’s nothing like say Dems position on the matter:
“Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that libertarians can hold good-faith views on both sides, we believe the government should be kept out of the question. We condemn state-funded abortions. It is particularly harsh to force someone who believes that abortion is murder to pay for another’s abortion. It is the right of the woman, not the state, to decide the desirability of prenatal testing, Caesarean births, fetal surgery, and/or home births.”
Libertarians are pro choice not because they believe/agree with abortion per se, they simply feel it’s not the governments place to be part of it, be it funding it, or preventing it. However, see:
Why I Am a Pro-Life Libertarian
Rand Paul gets attacked for being pro-liberty and anti-abortion. But there’s nothing inconsistent about his view.
https://reason.com/blog/2015/08/14/sorry-rand-paul-haters-pro-life-libertar
I guarantee you that 99% of libertarians favor fewer gun control laws than 99% of republicans. Frankly I’d wager that they favor fewer gun control laws than probably 60% of this forum.
I don’t really think you understand libertarianism at all, based on your post…and you calling them “libs.” Libertarians make you look like a progressive democrat on many if not most issues.
It may be as you say, but I do know that some libertarians have promoted gun control. I understand generally speaking the Libertartian party is quite pro-gun. As for the second part, not quite sure what your getting at…I used libs as short hand for libertarian. I don’t identify as Republican and especially not Democrat. My particular view of government would be beyond radical for everyone here including the Christians.
The no gov’t interference in abortion would axe it for me. Abortion is a really critical issue for me and I believe a proper gov’t should flat out outlaw it.
I have to agree here. Saying murder is a “states rights issue” is worse than saying slavery is a “states rights issue.” Welcome to the New Confederacy, with the Libertarian Party at its helm.
And how well is it working out for people with this hyper-religious viewpoint? Past forty-five years of it being a federal issue has obviously worked out super well for you. [emoji23]
I mean…states handle every other murder, and they handle it effectively. Personally, I’m actively in favor of abortion’s being available and cheap. It has pretty clearly resulted in lower crime rates and fewer people on government assistance. But I don’t believe in using the government to advance my personal belief system on other people either.
Edit:I’m being a little facetious by saying I’m in favor of it. I just find it such a weird thing for a bunch of dudes to get our panties twisted up about.
“Working out for me” isn’t the point. Opposing a barbaric, immoral, and evil practice is.
I just don’t find it to be any of those things…at all.
But how it’s working out for you IS the point. Let’s say you oppose it because it is barbaric and “evil.” One path, would lead to significantly fewer abortions in probably half of the states or even more than half. Outright bans in some. But because you’re so strongly opposed, you chose the path that will simply never lead to it being banned anywhere(I’ll bet you large sums of money on this right now…regardless of who gets on the Supreme Court.)
I’m not saying it makes you complacent or anything like that…hell I vote Libertarian most of the time(unless it’s a choice like Beto vs. Cruz.) But I understand that my vote won’t matter, and that is perfectly fine with me.
This is why the Libertarian Party goes nowhere. They always seem to have 1/2/3 stupid issues that are deal breakers for most sane adults. In the past it was drug legalization, now it is open borders, which of course is directly related to drug legalization.
I see your point. You are saying my attitude isn’t the practical way to a ban. Perhaps you’re right.
It won’t change my view.
Anyway, I’m dropping the subject. I suspect this could turn into a pro vs. anti-abortion free-for-all until the thread gets locked and out of respect for the OP I’ll just say we can “agree to disagree” on abortion.
Absolutely. Honestly I respect your resolve, despite lacking the framework in my brain to really understand it. I think it’s a lot like someone who hunts or raises his own food talking to a vegan. They will never agree, but in many ways if the other side has a reasoned and well thought out perspective they leave with more respect for the other than if they were talking to someone who only buys meat from the grocery store and never gives any thought to what it means.
Exactly. Their written platform is NOTHING like it was in the 1990’s either. Now it is much closer to Democrat and Republican platforms.
GOP has wanted old school little “l” libertarian votes for years, they just don’t want any libertarian positions to become reality.
Rather obvious they were going to crap in 2008 when their website had among their list of accomplishments as initiating a grass roots effort to boot out congressional incumbents with, no kidding, Bob Barr specifically named.
Used to be the biggest gripe with them from members of other parties was getting .gov out of the drug business. For many R&D disciples, the LP’s actual decriminalization position wasn’t bad enough so it would get twisted into something teetering on forcing people to use drugs.
Amoral is fine, as long as you are consistently amoral. I do think that there is an objective reality and morality. Not everyone agrees with that or what that means in practice, so you end up with moral relativism- it would just be better with less noise around it.
Anyway, the real issue is that Libertarianism is so far out of sync with what is, that it is more of a belief system than a way to govern- since you can’t be a half-way crook or Libertarian. The borders and welfare is a great example. So you need a sweeping change, or it doesn’t work.
The other issue is how you sell it. People can agree that the concept would work, but getting them to give up free stuff (and listen to Milton Friedman talk about how programs that are to help the poor usually end up benefiting higher class people (benefits and/or employment/contracts) as much or more).
That is a tough sell. Taxing the Be-Jesus out of the rich is a lot more appealing path forward.
The beauty of the GOP was that they wrapped the big concepts of Libertarianism into an attractive package. The problem is the dems imported voters and promised enough free stuff to win elections- and the GOP finally dropped the Libertarianism principles to feed at the trough.
As do the Dems and GOP, hence why I’m a Independent as a voter, libertarian in most issues, but not all. On the big issues, I agree with Libertarians more then I do DNC or GOP at this time. If the GOP ever got back to its roots of being fiscally “conservative” and socially “liberal” they’d have my support and millions of others. I support the GOP more than the Dems by a long way at the moment, as (1) the Dems have lost their f-ing minds and are getting worse by the minute and (2) at the heart of it, GOP has more in common with Libertarian ideals, large L and small.
It’s like this: if one puts a premium on Liberty and personal Freedoms as the Founders and Const outlines, you’d support Libertarians. If you really want to see smaller Gov, you’d support Libertarians. Reduced/no gun laws, that’s Libertarians, and so forth, sorta what the GOP pretends to offer, and never delivers on, and never will. If you think Gov has the Right or the ability to tell you what one person can do with their body (like or not, agree or not), but will not then move onto telling you what you can do, then one is is denial and ignoring how that works once Gov gets it’s hooks in as we have all seen over and over.
People freak out over bump stocks due to the obvious slipperly slope it presents for further gun control, but can’t apparently see the slippery slope on other issues…
I don’t have to like you nor agree with you, I just have to tolerate you, unless your action directly impact my own “life liberty and the pursuit of happiness” as that now infringes on my Const Rights, we have a problem.
I do not think that Libertarian ideals in it’s purest form could work in the real world, but that’s no different then any form of government when humans are involved.
On the abortion Q, one thing we all agree on is, less pregnancy = fewer abortions, and that’s where I think the focus should be in that’s one area no one disputes. How to accomplish that is another matter.
I’d still support libertarian approaches the issue, work on reducing the numbers by reducing pregnancy rates, and per before, there are various Libertarians who are not pro choice.
Anyway, that’s all I will say on the issue and mods can lock if they feel it’s not a productive discussion.
The most accurate and useful sentence in this thread. The GOP does not appear to even pretend anymore from what I can gather, other then perhaps Rand Paul in terms of wanting to follow the basic ideals of libertarianism (which as you rightly point out is more of a belief system than a way to govern per se) which is much closer to the ideals set out by the Founders.
The typical GOP voter’s aversion to the Libertarian party is always claimed to be at least 1 of: drugs, abortion, open borders.
The latter 2 have historically had GOP complicity so that really leaves drugs. So, assuming the GOP booster is being honest, they are support a plethora of anti-freedom positions (anti gun laws and higher taxes to name a couple that are “bad” when democrats do them) being kept on the books by their own party in order to keep up the war on drugs.
This last one has always been kind of interesting considering many of the staunchest people on that issue I have ever come across tend to ingest mood altering drugs, alcohol or prescription and often quite heavily.
A former co-worker, had a headache or some other pain one day and popped out a pill bottle with a dozen or more different capsules and tablets. My WTF? inquiry got the explanation that it was a mix of pain killers, sleeping aids, and antibiotics that friends and family hadn’t finished. When I pointed out I recalled her supporting incarceration for people doing exactly the same thing (up to and including that very same week) I was assured that it somehow wasn’t the same thing.
Yep. Almost every anti-decriminalization/anti-legalization person I know has at one point accepted a controlled substance from another person. Even drugs for which you are prescribed and simply don’t have with you…and they’ve committed a felony.
He GOP is killing itself on drugs and gays, with positions that aren’t even conservative. And they’re shooting themselves in the foot by taking various abortion laws out of context. It’s often the equivalent of PETA slaughterhouse videos which is rarely the normal reality.
The libertarian party’s roll might not be to ever actually lead and hold office. But they definitely alter the debate. As an example there are many times more libertarian leaning members of Congress today than there were before Ron Paul ran for president. Whether or not you liked him, he had a very real impact on the Republican electorate, particularly the young voters.