The "KISS Carbine" is a Hoax

AR/M4 AR General Discussion
1

Yeah, you heard me. Go over to TOS and you’ll see pic threads of bare-bones stripped down, superlight retro-clones. They are KISS carbines, and by virtue of their utter simplicity they are supposed to be good.

Well, if something is so simple that it’s capability is marginal, is it still a good thing? Because it is simple? I think not.

I bought into this like a lot of others, I tried a Colt Sporter lightweight and put tritium sights and a carry strap and the usual. I bought into the idea that the carbine needed to be KISS, instead of understanding that one needs to adhere to the principle of KISS rather than make the rifle the physical embodiment of it.

An Aimpoint optic is superior to iron sights (even night sights) in every area that matters. They are extremely reliable and rugged. They are, in fact, KISS.

A 2 point adjustable sling, such as the Vickers model, is essentially just as simple as a parade carry strap but gives much enhanced functionality. It is, in fact, KISS.

Picatinny rails are an incredibly easy and versatile way to attach things to your long gun. They stay put and don’t break. They are, in fact, KISS.

A white light on your gun is absolutely essential for locating and identifying potential threats in low-light. SF lights and some others are super-rugged and have long battery lives. They are, in fact, KISS.

Guys looking to have the ultimate lightweight 5.5 lb AR are deluding themselves because they are probably sacrificing capability. While lightweight is nice, I would rather tote a few extra ounces or lbs. if that means my carbine is a more effective weapon.

Keep It Elegant Stupid.

:eek:

2

Not everyone is going to be clearing houses in the dead of night. If it is just a range rifle then why add 30 pounds to a superbly lightweight platform. The flashlight is the only addition I’d put on a Patrol rifle, dont need a rail system for that. The Aimpoint is superior to iron sights untill a battery fails or it takes a heavy impact and breaks. I know unlikely but even Scandinavian tech fails every now and then. We tend to rely too hevily on Technology and when it fails we dont have the basic skills to continue the fight.

3

I made that point on TOS and was slammed, these guys want their barebones rigs and will not admit that they are sacrificing utility. Heck, I have had people argue with me the need for lights and slings. :rolleyes:

4

I have to agree with the original poster. Anything that works well, or makes usage of the weapon easier, is a welcome addition. The fact is that the technology now available to us makes these weapons far better than they were originally designed to be.

5

I am not talking about range rifles. If you do need to clear a structure I hope you aren’t grabbing your Oly plinker.

6

Wasn’t this the post you were threatening to put up several weeks ago? I came here then looking for it an couldn’t find it. :wink:

I have a so-called KISS rifle. It’s a Colt 6520 that is basically stock. As you said, it has a duckbill grip, a front side sling attachment point, and a tritium front post. I was looking at ways to attach a light to the M4 handguards I put on it but lost interest as other things gained my attention for now.

Ultimately KISS for me is about three things; weight, cost, and simplicity (in terms of less things to break). For me it’s not about “instead of” but “in conjunction with.” I think there’s a place for the accessorized gun and a place for the KISS. If forced to choose, I’d always take the optioned-up model, but I still think the streamlined model has merit as well.

Weight:
Yes, we all know that a DD 7.0 rail weighs less than a set of M4 handguards, but not when you start bolting things to it. There is alot to be said for a lightweight rifle when you’re toting it alot a shooting it a little. Scenarios like post-hurricane protection come to mind, but you can imagine your own I’m sure.

Cost:
When optioned up with lights an whiz-bangs, even the most miserly of ARs of acceptable quality are over $2k. Compare that to a mostly stock 6520 for $1k plus maybe $100 in accessories and that’s a big deal. Whether you’re concerned with theft or confiscation, there’s something to be said for giving up $1k vs. $2k+.

Simplicity:
Optics fail. Batteries die. Rails come loose. Yes, my tritium dot may burn out, but the sight itself continues to work. Yes, the handguards may crack, but the barrel doesn’t come loose in the process.

This is all amplified in the context of where you and I first discussed this; akforums.net. Especially so from the cost aspect. If I can choose to have a $500 AK as a “trunk gun” rather than a $3k AR, I’ll take it. As the probability that I’ll need a firearm increases, my willingness to risk the financial investment increases as well. This is how I justify a $2k semi-custom 1911 on my belt BTW. :wink:

Ultimately though, I think that most people that are into KISS have different motivations than the majority of users on this site. From what I remember on TOS the majority of the KISS and retro forum posters just seemed to want to have something cool to post pictures of on the web, and to enjoy just plinking away with. Why begrudge them that? If they wander into the “bolt 10k things to your gun” section and belittle your choice in tactical accessories why not just ignore them and be secure in knowing that your firearm setup meets your needs?

For me, there’s all of the rationales and such, but ultimately there’s just something fun about running a basically stock 6520 in a match or a class and beating people with $3k worth of gun hanging from their sling. In a carbine class I took last year, I was shooting a $3k optioned-up Colt, and there was a guy next to me with a $800 20" A2 Bushmaster making better and faster hits than me at every single drill.

7

I disagree. There’s just as many gear Queers over on TOS as there are here or anywhere else.

Most of those guys build an Ultra KISS as one of MANY ARs they own.

On the other hand I agree with you in that I view my Carbeans as KISS, and they are outfitted with White lights and Israeli slings.

8

Having an Ultra KISS as one of many for fun purposes or for a collection is ok in my book. But that’s not what I’m talking about in this instance.

9

That’s what I love. I take my basic bean (by basic, I mean light and sling) out to class, and am NO worse off than anyone else out there with an overbred gizmo gun.

10

Gotcha.

11

It’s like alot of other things in life. What matters is how are you using whatever item and whether or not you even need it or what you need to add to make it more effective for you.

Yes it’s great to have collector’s/display, etc. piece to reflect back on simple times or to just have fun at the range. It doesn’t mean that it won’t work in certain settings, but that’s where it ends.

It’s like a Police duty belt 30 years ago and look at one now.

Mark

12

I think a bare bones iron sighted gun has it’s place. It’s nice to break out my very basic 20" A2 just to shoot and to play with iron sights once in a while. They are good for going over the gun’s basics with new shooters. So the place they have isn’t really practical, just basic and nostalgic.

I just don’t really get the KISS concept either for a practical gun. If all my fancy stuff breaks, I’m reduced to a bare bones level but still left with a working gun.

13

Agreed.

14

KISS has a legitimate place

They are good for informal shooting when you just want to go out and enjoy yourself.

They cost less and are more effective as a “hand out” gun.

15

All guns have “their place.”

I am only referring to carbines intended for serious purposes.

16

I like the other name, “Truck/ Trunk/ Accord Wagon Gun”, which isn’t used as often anymore. The main idea behind it’s build is so you can keep it in your vehicle and if stolen, it won’t sting as much.

17

I base my two AR’s based on my skill and experiences and needs and what I come up with is what works for me… if it falls into a kiss category or not… I could give to shits…

I used Irons long before an Aimpoint and would never go back to Irons after experiencing the utility, speed and reliability of a red dot.

A white light is a must

for me I like VFG’s, they make operating and employing my guns more natural and help me to control them better

Since Uncle Sam has been issuing rails and they help make the gun more modular… I use them… I never met a handgaurd I liked on a AR anyhow… and since when has a rail caused a failure. Hell, if anything, rails help to dissipate barrel heat way better then a plastic/aluminum hand guard that surounds the barrel.

If all your ever going to do is have a range toy/plinker… then it really does not matter what you have or what it is… and those ar the last guys in the world that I would listen to anyhow…

Most need a KISS gun cause there lack of training or anything remotely considered to be skill does not allow them to enjoy some of the better add ons anyhow.

18

KISS is an attitude, not a tool.

KISS means choosing what’s necessary to perform the task at hand – and “what’s necessary” depends both on the task and on the person doing the choosing.

KISS has been hijacked by anti-technology and anti-pimping types trying to convince the the rest of the world that less is always better – which it isn’t, of course.

KISS, in the context of motor vehicles, has nothing to do with carburetors and radial tires and luggage racks – so it might follow that KISS, in the context of defensive weapons, has nothing necessarily to do with iron sights and lights and rails…

19

Carbines with A1 sights, no mounted lights, no VFGs, etc. have been getting it done in
“social settings” for years.

Give me a Maglite and an A1 style carbine and I will get the job done because it’s more about mindset and the will to come out on top. Mindset will separate a person from 90% of the people out there.

There are less things that can go wrong equipment-wise with a so-called KISS setup. There can be no denying that.

That said, my primary gun has a piston upper, Aimpoint, Surefire light, and an Aimpoint magnifier with a LaRue mount.

20

We are tracking the same.

Which is simpler to use, an Aimpoint or iron sights? The Aimpoint is simpler.

Which is simpler to use, the carry strap or an adjustable 2 point sling? The carry strap sucks for both carrying the rifle and especially for transitioning. The adjustable two point is simpler.

Is shooting a long gun with a hand held light simpler than shooting with a mounted light? The weapon light is simpler.

See, the KISS principle works.