You are simply comparing these projectiles by their gross diameter, not by what they actually do when they hit flesh/enter the body. Proper 5.56/.223 ammunition (read Mk262, Mk318, Gold Dot, etc) does NOT just punch a .224 inch hole, especially at close ranges. This is a proven scientific fact. The amount of energy involved and the fragmentation and or deformation of the round in the flesh causes massive internal trauma. I invite you to spend a little time researching the topic, Dr. Martin Fackler’s work is a great starting point. I have seen my fair share of people shot with 5.56 and the effects are horrific.
I’m not saying 00 buckshot is ineffective, far from it. However your statement that 9x 5.56 = 1x 00 buck is simply false.
I’m not disagreeing on what you’re saying, but I kinda am.
Why not do a dry run in your home? Why not do several? As an example: Start in the bedroom, have the wife make noises in different parts of the house, hunt the intruder, check angles, lighting, mirrors, cover, concealment, etc. Did you remember to “call 911”? Try different scenarios, like defend in place, hunt the bad guy, whatever, make it fun and interesting. For that matter, have your intruder wear lingerie and make it really fun!
If someone breaks into your home what do you expect of your children? Have you gone over this? Have you drilled it? Have you made it into a fun game so they don’t mind practicing on occasion?
SIRT guns work great for this type of role playing with the wife, not recommended with the kiddos, as it teaches some bad habits.
As posted once upon a time by someone that this forum held in very high regard before whatever issue caused him to delete his posts…
From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile
Law enforcement 12 ga. shotguns using buckshot of #1 or larger size offer greater close range physiological incapacitation potential than virtually any other commonly used shoulder fired weapon-- this can be a significant advantage during urban entry missions and high risk warrant service in closely confined settings.
For dealing with one intruder the semi-automatic rifle might not seem like the greatest choice. Many would go to a handgun or a pump shotgun.
However, if you wake up to a noise and see on your home video surveillance system that multiple intruders are entering your back door, now that AR with a loaded 30-round magazine is looking mighty fine.
My go-to home defense gun has always been and will always be an AR loaded with Speer Gold Dot bonded LE 5.56, however I think saying a shotgun loaded with 00 buck, 01 buck, or a good slug is ‘a piss poor home defense choice’ - is a pretty naive statement. Is it the best choice? Absolutely not. But a piss poor choice? Hardly.
Even though I train 98% of the time with my ARs and pistols, I’ve run my Mossberg 500 through multiple tactical shotgun courses, and it can be a capable weapon with the right ammo. A good AR offers MANY more advantages (that have been pointed out), but i wouldn’t feel inadequate defending my home with a shotgun and good ammo if I had to.
You see where the disconnect is, streck? You claimed that a single 00 buck pellet (.33", 54 grain, and 1100 fps) is equivalent to a .224" 62 grain bullet moving at 2800-3000 fps.
A single 00 buck pellet falls somewhere above a single .22LR bullet and below a single .22 WMR in terms of kinetic energy.
Interestingly, nine 00 buck pellets at 1100 fps have the same kinetic energy as a 62 gr 5.56 round at 3100 fps, ~1790J from the 12 ga vs ~1767J from the 5.56.
Also, in the quote you posted, “From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile,” notice the conditionals included.
A single 00 buck pellet falls somewhere above a single .22LR bullet and below a single .22 WMR in terms of kinetic energy.
Interestingly, nine 00 buck pellets at 1100 fps have the same kinetic energy as a 62 gr 5.56 round at 3100 fps, ~1790J from the 12 ga vs ~1767J from the 5.56.
Penetration is not always a function of energy… many on this forum and in this thread state the overpenetration risk of 00B…how can that be true if it’s nothing more than a .22lr…
Also, in the quote you posted, “From a pure wound trauma standpoint on a shot against unarmored soft tissue, a close range hit from a 12 ga shotgun using buckshot will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile,” notice the conditionals included.
Those are the exact parameters being discussed…
And the only part that matters in this discussion is: …will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile. Period.
To put the 17 January 1989 Stockton incident in context, it must be
compared with past shootings:
Only four of the eleven shot at the ESL Co. in Sunnyvale, CA, on 16
February 1988, survived. The weapon was a 12 gauge shotgun.
Only eleven of the thirty-two shot in the MacDonalds (24 July 1984, San
Ysidro, CA) survived. Of the three weapons used, the deadliest weapon by far
was a pump-action 12 gauge shotgun.
The overwhelming majority of the media coverage of the Stockton shooting
has consisted of misstatements, exaggerations and inappropriate comparisons.
It is ironic, in this country where firearms have played such a prominent
historic role, that the general knowledge of weapon effects has become so
distorted.
…
To put the 17 January 1989 Stockton shooting in context:
A. Only four of the eleven shot by Richard Farley at
the ESL Co. in
Sunnyvale, CA, on 16 February 1988, survived. The weapon was a
12 gauge shotgun.
B. Only seven of the twenty-one shot by Christian Dornier on 12 July
1989, in Luxiol, France, survived. The weapon was a 12 gauge
shotgun.
C. Twelve of the twenty shot by Joseph Wesbecker on 14 September
1989, in Louisville, KY, survived. The weapon was an AK-47 rifle
(which he had boug
ht in May or June 1989).
D. Thirty of the thirty-five shot by Patrick Purdy in Stockton
survived. The weapon was an AK-47 rifle.
So what did you mean when you wrote:
“With a single pull of the trigger, the 12g delivers nine .33 pellets. into ~3” hole inside 10 yards. The carbine shooter needs to get off 9 shots to compare the terminal effects and he will sacrifice both time and accuracy"?
Penetration is not always a function of energy… many on this forum and in this thread state the overpenetration risk of 00B…how can that be true if it’s nothing more than a .22lr…
Individual 00b pellets don’t overpenetrate very much from what I recall, I think they’re talking about 12ga slugs.
Those are the exact parameters being discussed…
And the only part that matters in this discussion is: …will create more damage than any 5.56 mm projectile. Period.
And if the intruder has soft kevlar, none of your pellets will get through. We are talking about home invasions, right?
You’re obviously not reading my posts, rather taking some sort of defensive stance and looking to get into a pissing match with anyone who has a differing opinion. As I already mentioned:
Personally I am not about to swap out my MK18 clone (which has a 10.5 inch barrel, 30 round magazine, red dot, Surefire light) from under my bed with my 590A1 anytime soon. You do whatever you wish.
In the article is written that the intruder was shot once in the stomach with a .223/5.56 (we have no idea what kind of ammo). My responses are based on the idea that there is no way that outcome demonstrates AR superiority.
Also if we’re really getting down to the nitty gritty, high quality 5.56 is a far better performer than 7.62x39 which is what Dr. Fackler referenced in his article.
He was referring to any ball ammo as being ineffective by design. I don’t think anyone here would choose M193 or M855 as their defensive round. At least I would hope not…But in the real word of ammunition performance, we shoot 200 pound deer with 30 caliber specialized hunting ammunition designed to cause the most damage and still watch game run for 10s to a hundred yards or more after even very good hits…
It is ridiculous to think that a 200 pound man will always be instantly incapacitated by much smaller bullets.
I’ve got a box of antlers here that say 12g Winchester Supreme Ammo is no joke in my Marlin Slugmaster. Almost all of them dropped dead where they stood. One rather large buck managed to get a few yards before giving up the ghost.
This one went off the rails from the onset, good grief . . . :suicide:
Like many here, I own many different platforms. I live in a densely populated area, if I lived on some land in a rural setting as a lot of my family does a carbine would be my first choice. But until I can escape suburbia a G17 with a 630 lumen white light and an OEM 33rd mag loaded with Speer GD 53617 are the ticket for me. YMMV.
Limitations of the SG in a room clearing environment:
Length. You really have to know what you are doing to properly shorten them up to clear corners.
Capacity. Lot less rounds.
More difficult to attach a white light and optic too.
Hard to reload quickly.
Shooting at targets with friendlies close by (hostage scenario).
Over penetration (00 Buck and slugs do not fragment).
Less reliable than an AR or pistol (even pumps). We have seen many people short stroke pump guns in live fire shoot houses when surprised.
Most all well versed .Mil firearms instructors will tell you that an AR15 or Pistol is a better choice than a SG for room clearing.
You are of course welcome to like what you like and choose the gun that best fits your needs, but I wouldn’t say that it is as good of a choice as an AR.
