I don’t think it matters a whole lot on modern pistols because they generally have “close” to the same angle. But I have shot some older handguns or guns with bastardized grips that start to hurt your wrist. I’ve shot some that start to wear on your wrist painfully after just a few shots. It might be that the odd angles work muscles that don’t normally get worked or I just might be a wuss.
I always thought it was like trying punch something when the back of your hand, wrist, and forearm are not in-line - something is going to give! I think the angle should compliment making the recoil push straight back into the arm as one unit and load your wrist up because the angle is too close to 90 degrees.
It “depends”. I shoot the Glock well, and have owed one (Gen I G23) for over a decade, but absolutely hate the grip angle, how it sets and feels in my hand when shooting it. It just feels weird as hell to me. Glocks are the only handgun I’ve fired that generate contempt when I shoot it after 100 rounds or so. It rarely got shot, maybe once every couple of months. M&Ps on the other hand, feels comfortable and I can shoot it all day long (which I currently shoot weekly during normal practice). If a Glock was my only choice on earth, it would get a quick trip to Boresightsolutions for a grip reduction. YMMV.
You don’t believe in “Natural point of Aim”? I know you can force the weapon on target and get proficient through training/drilling, but wouldn’t muscling the weapon can cause added fatigue? I find Glocks naturally point high for me. I takes a conscious effort to point the front site down.
When you consider “Natural Point of Aim”, it’s a rifle technique in which you will shift your entire body to naturally align the sights onto the target.
Conversely, when you consider the handgun, you are not going to shift your entire body just to obtain a sight picture. You are going to drive the gun from target to target regardless of where your lower body may be and regardless of where the target may be.
Think of a target low and at your 10 o’clock, then another at shoulder height at your 2 o’clock. There isn’t going to be a natural way to shoot those targets, you are not going to take the 2 or 3 extra steps to square off to the targets.
When you really think about it, there is nothing natural about pointing a handgun. Just because you can pick up gun X and put it in front of you with the sights magically aligned isn’t natural, it’s either muscle memory from time using the handgun, or you got lucky… try doing the same by pointing in different directions other than directly in front of you at shoulder height.
Now consider how you perform your draw. Do you pull the gun out and just throw it out to the target? or do you track the front sight during the press-out? If you did the later then you wouldn’t be pointing high when using a Glock. You are also more likely to get a faster aimed hit vs. throwing the gun out in front of you and fishing for the sights.
Very well said. I was about to post the exact same thing.
Natural point of aim really only refers to rifles when shooting standing/prone etc. You don’t draw your handgun to full extension and then look for your sights and find your natural of aim with a long time limit like you do in Hi-Power rifle shooting. If you draw your handgun you’re probably shooting in within 1-2 seconds.
If you’re tracking the front sight then the gun will end up ‘pointing’ at the target. The bullets go where the front sight is pointing which is why we locate it during the draw and get on the sight before the press out. This is the most efficient way to get the gun on target. I learned this draw from one of the fastest pistol shooters in the world and that was USPSA/IPSC GrandMaster Phil Strader. I worked for Phil for a few months. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zc8IlUnrSJE&feature=related
These are undisputable points, but I think “naturally pointing” is used in different meaning in reference to handguns. It may be terminologically incorrect, and perhaps “less strain or effort” is better term contextually. I track my sights in press-out all the same whether I draw Glock, P7 or 1911. With Glock my strong hand has to be canted forward more aggressively than when I hold 1911 or HK; otherwise at the end of my extension I’ll still be pointing up.
In other words, with 1911 and P7 I need to acquire grip, draw, get support hand on, extend out and track my sights - and I am on target. With Glock, I need to do all that plus cant my strong hand forward a bit - hence, I consider Glock, for the lack of better word, less naturally pointing for me due to grip angle.
If you’re used to one gun switching to the next gun does take some adjustment. Just as if you’re used to driving a F250 and then buy a Corolla. It will ‘feel’ different.
From age five I grew up shooting a S&W 41, 1911s and then later Berettas and Glocks. Going back and forth does require some dry practice (drawing and mag changes) to get used to whatever I’m practicing to use. The guns are different just as the F250 is different from the Corolla.
The point of practice is to perfect the shooting, the draw and the mag changes regardless of what I’m using.
The interesting thing is that if I take a new shooter who’s never fired any handgun and start them on a Glock I never hear about how the grip angle is wrong nor do I hear how they can’t naturally shoot the gun. I’d also add that 99% of the shooters who are better shooters than me don’t complain about ‘grip angle’…
True, but they may have no reference to compare. Having said that, a number of Glock shooters switched to M&P because…?
Absolutely, and worth repeating. More so, it is worth emphasizing that true shooters don’t complain of grip angle, or bore axis, or longer reset, or not-so-flat shooting guns vs. just-a-bit-more-flat shooting guns - they just shoot and make things happen. This is an attitude I try to emulate, and while I don’t think I’ll ever be a good shooter, blaming my Glock’s grip angle etc. would be just silly.
Even though it doesn’t point as naturally as other guns to me:D…
I have just about never picked up anything and been “good” at it.
When it’s come to new stances, grips, etc.
I see something different, I might give it a try, but to switch to high thumbs from whatever you were using, and shoot one shot one way and another the other way you’ve been shooting a gun for hundreds/thousands of rounds.
To say you’ll notice an improvement immediately is asking a lot, a lot more than I see as realistic.
That improvement comes with practice, repeating whatever it is you’re changing and then after a certain amount of implementation then reviewing it.
You can’t do something a hundred times then compare it to something you’ve done once and go “Yeah this is clearly superior” especially when you’re talking about very finite differences.
That being said, I hate the way glocks handle, I can shoot them well once I get adjusted, but I just don’t care for the them.
I was on the fence about a few months ago, back when I was pretty sure I wanted an M&P9, whether I’d buy an M&P9 or an Glock 19 (both being similar on paper), I picked up the Glock 19, held it, then I walked to the other side of the gun store, picked up a M&P9 with the thinnest backstrap, and I knew beyond the shadow of a doubt, that was it.
(I’m still working my way towards that M&P9.)
Some things you also can see the theory behind, but I’ve put probably in the ball park of 600-800 rounds through a G21, and probably about 150 through a Glock 19 with a 3.5 lb disconnector, extended slide release, mag release, night sights with skate board tape on the grip panels, I liked that Glock 19 because it was approaching being enjoyable for a Glock.
But I just don’t like the way it handles, hate to say it.
ETA: As a side note, I really do hate to say that, they’re dirt cheap, everyone can work on them, reliable as it a striker fired handgun can be, but, just doesn’t work for me. Handled them for years, shot them a bit over the years (Gen 3’s anyway), just every time I pick one up, I immediately am reminded why I don’t like Glocks.’
First handgun I fired was a Glock, I learned to shoot handguns on Glocks, and I still say that, as a side note.
Robb, on third pic from above, is your finger on trigger already? From here it appears that it is; if it isn’t, then disregard the question. If it is, then would you think you’re on trigger a bit early?
This has been a stumbling block for me. I know that finger goes on trigger after gun is indexed on target. Usually when I am sure I am indexed, I am almost at full extension - especially on small low-probability targets.
Long story short, as soon as you start to pick up the front sight during the press out, and your gun is obviously pointed at the target, you start your trigger squeeze in an attempt to break the shot as soon as you reach full extension.
I use an M&P because I prefer the the smoother crisper trigger, the striker doesn’t cut up my hand like some Glocks and because I can reload it faster than another other Production division gun made. The grip angle is of no concern. I Production division I’ve used Glocks, M&Ps, Berettas and SIGs. Regardless of the gun my draw is the same.
My gun is set up like this: Warren Tactical plain black rear sight.
Warren Tactical .115" wide by .190" tall serrated front sight.
Apex sear, sear spring, FP block.
Stock recoil spring and FP block spring.
S&W Mass compliant trigger return spring.
Texturing by Hatfields Gunsmithing.
The trigger on a digital scale is 6lbs, but it’s a long stroke and feels more like 3.5lbs. The reset is incredibly short and very positive using the Mass. compliant trigger spring.
Yes I do get on the trigger as soon as both hands get on the gun this goes back to me shooting DA/SA Berettas and SIGs. When you have that long of a stroke to keep up with SA guys you have to do that. I don’t start actually pressing on the trigger until I can see the front sight on the target. Then I start pressing taking up most of the slack and once the rear sight comes up to meet the front I break the shot. Some would call this unsafe…it’s not because I’ve already identified the target and decided to shoot it.
Back to the reset. Some argue it doesn’t matter. IMHO it doesn’t as long as it’s short!
Sometimes I’m shooting to reset sometimes I’m not. If I’m shooting a plate rack or pepper poppers at 50yds you best believe I’m shooting to reset. If I’m hammer targets at 10yds I’ll be trigger slapping.
You shouldn’t be thinking about this while actually shooting your mental thoughts should be not thinking about anything but aligning the sights and shooting the targets.
Thanks, I am familiar with a concept. I have taken Todd’s class. The question I’m posing is not of general nature how to do it, but specifically, at what point of press-out one’s finger goes on trigger. Do you do it what gun is pointed in general direction of target? Or when you see your front sight in your peripheral visual field? Or when you are reasonably sure that muzzle covers your target? Or when you are certain that muzzle covers that target?
If you follow the link you’ve provided, you’ll find in a third paragraph the following statement:
Because you are going to be touching the trigger, you must be absolutely certain your sights are on the target. You must be certain your sights are aligned before touching the trigger.
Bold text is not mine, it’s Todd’s.
Now if you see what’s happening here (we know that finger is on that rigger; horizontal arrow show where target is, based on last two photos)…
…you can reasonably suspect that Rob’s finger is on trigger before his sights are on target, unless that target is huge and very close.
Early this year I had an ND in exactly the same situation. I was practicing my press-outs couple of weeks before taking Todd’s class. The pistol was Glock 19, stock trigger at over 6 lbs. pull; the target was relatively large and distance about 8 feet. As I was pushing my speed, I put finger on trigger at about the same position where Rob’s gun is at on that picture and pressed out too early. Since other safety rules weren’t violated, nobody got hurt. However I was lucky that it happened on indoors range. That bullet hit the ceiling; on outdoors range it would’ve gone very far.
I do not mean to criticize or instruct Rob who is more experienced and better shooter than I’ll ever be. I am simply relaying that based on my experience and what I understand of press-out, I get my finger on that trigger later in sequence, when I am absolutely sure my front sight is over target. And yes, it hurts my first shot times, but I am fine with it…
I do ‘locate/touch’ the trigger sooner than most, probably measured in 1/100ths of second of time than most but I do find the trigger sooner/faster than most. I’m not pressing the trigger until I see the front sight on the target. Also notice my post above I have a 6lb trigger with a pretty long stroke compared to a 1911/2011 or similar SA gun, I’m not shooting a Hammerli or electronic triggered Olympic pistol. I also shoot a bit more than most @10-20K rounds of pistol per year depending. My draw could be a bit faster, most of the time it’s 1.2-1.5sec before the first shot, it should be under 1 second.
I’ve yet to ND in a match (6yrs of USPSA now) and have yet to be DQ’d for such action, however the saying is “there are competitors that have DQ’d, and those who will DQ”. When you’re running and gunning at the limits of your skill set eventually you’ll do something that get you DQ’d it doesn’t mean that safety is not important but it’s just like Indy car racing. Some cars are going to crash, blow up etc it’s the nature of the game.
I was once DQ’d at an IDPA match for arriving while carrying a loaded concealed pistol (the one I was going to shoot in the match)…wait isn’t that what IDPA is about? go figure.
Here’s the whole sequence of that part of the stage (uncropped pics). You decide when I started pulling the trigger…The Canon 50D my wife used for these photos shoots at 6.33 frames per second (aka 43 shots) FWIW.
Robb, it is somewhat hard to see from pics - I’d think fourth or fifth frame, but the fact that you never had an ND speaks for itself.
I, on the other hand, had an ND within 2 months of beginning to practice this technique, with the same trigger weight and similar pull length. So I, for myself, have to make sure I am nowhere near that trigger until I am ready to be pulling. Different strokes for different folks.
