The great .308 debate

AR/M4 Beyond 5.56/.223
21

OP, you might have expected a bias against the SCAR 17 on the “M4Carbine” forum. But, I believe the SCAR 17 is the best all around .308 rifle of this type out there. Yes, there are other fine rifles, but the SCAR is light, accurate, easy to shoot, and robust. I like it so much I have two now. Add a Geissele Super SCAR trigger and you have a very accurate weapon. I’m not a pro like a lot of the amazing folks on this forum, and I’m not even a great shot, but I can put 7 out of ten shots in a less that one MOA hole at 100 yards with just a bipod on the bench with American Eagle M1A ammo (not expensive).

The recoil impulse is excellent for a .308 and if you carefully choose your optics the rifle can be very light. Starts at less than 8 pounds. The magazines are not an issue and there have been some aftermarket attempts to make mags, but just buy the factory ones. This is also very modern piston driven design not a piston driven adaptation of a DI rifle. The rifle has been well vetted and is very reliable. Sales of the 17 seem to have been very good for an expensive rifle, it is still hard to find a SCAR 17 FDE rifles sometimes.

I completely agree.

I think it makes little sense to compare a cheap consumer rifle like the Mossberg MVP to a really fine rifle like the SCAR 17. They are different markets. Besides, SCAR 17 mags are now readily available. As are all kinds of accessories. Why would companies spend large amounts of money to develop SCAR lowers that take Magpul mags if FN wasn’t selling very many rifles?

22

I’m partial to the LMT MWS. it’s competitively priced, has exceptional quality, and uses sr25 magazines. want a short barrel? want a different caliber altogether? swap barrel in 10 seconds. I love the quad rail, but the slick side will save a bit of weight.

23

Far from disliking it - just pointing out the reasons to my why the Scar17 magazine isn’t going to be a standard which new weapon systems adopt. The SCAR really had the ability to be a dominant player if it wound up with some more barrel diversity, and aftermarket versions of parts; but for short, light, reliable, accurate .308’s it’s still basically untouchable. Because it’s still a single source weapon (with some cool aftermarket stuff like triggers and extended handguards having come along), there’s isn’t a budget version, so it’s competing directly with the LMT offering that seems to have a lot of the same features going for it, but without as much seeming future-proofing since the 5.56/300blk conversions haven’t caught on. I’m not saying magazine production being caught up with demand has been bad, just that sales may not have met long term goals since a lot of people are holding back on joining the .308 market, and lots of other players have moved into the market space of 2-3k rifles.

The MVP comparison has little to do with rifles that actually compete for really usable semiautomatic 308’s; just illustrates that the SR25 type magazines are seeing adoption well beyond LR308s, and may continue to do so which will probably solidify at least the magwell portion of the 308 the market converges on. The LMT has the same barrel change party trick, but there are actually 6.5CM and really varied length barrels actually readily available.

24

I don’t know why you need to change the barrel in ten seconds, but the SCAR barrel is held by 6 accessible screws and barrels can be changed in less than 5 minutes. I believe there is a short barrel available for the SCAR. And of course you could have one cut.

I don’t buy rifles because I like their magazines.

There are a lot of very positive reviews on the SCAR out there as well.

25

My point was that it’s easy.

“Liking” a magazine is not a factor, availability and price are.

I love the SCAR H, but I’d still get the MWS first.

Sent from the 9th annual International Player Haters’ Ball

26

Following this as I am also researching my first .308 purchase. How does the LMT at around $2,300 compare to a Scar 17 at $2,500 or even a HK MR762A1 at $2,999?

27

In what way? What do you intend to use it for? You can look up the specs, but you need to decide what the primary purpose is for the rifle. I like the SCAR for an all around rifle. It does quite a few things well, but if I wanted a rifle just for long range shooting I might pick a different rifle.

There are also a lot of reviews of these rifles out there.

28

I intended to be a little provocative, but did not intend to offend.

I don’t get the need for a super fast barrel change. I think someone called it a “party trick”, personally It seems like a nice idea, but am I going to keep a short barrel and sniper barrel and then change the optics to go with it? No, but then I’m not an operator and if I was I’d have two rifles instead of changing out barrels.

As far as mags are concerned, I can see wanting to share mags with another rifle you may have, but buying a single rifle I wouldn’t care. Mags in .308 are a small part of the cost too. 25 rounds of .308 cost more than a magazine so big deal .308 is expensive to shoot.

I like all of the rifles considered here, I just think that the SCAR has a bit of an advantage for what I want to use it for. It is a good all around rifle. So we have different views, no big deal.

29

I don’t think many .308s sell well compared to 5.56 guns in general, cost of ownership in the .308 market is enormous compared to 5.56 which isn’t cheap and .308 is a luxury for many of us, not really a need, but allow me to make a couple of points. I still don’t think you have to worry about support for the SCAR platform and I still think it sells well compared to other .308s.

  1. SCAR mags work great in the gun, I actually prefer these over Pmags for the SCAR but will be buying the Stryker SEAL after market lower that utilizes scar mags for it’s added strength. The Handl lower has people covered well who want to use pmags.

  2. LMT is a nice rifle in it’s own right and I’m generally a big LMT fan but it is not without it’s minuses as well. No adjustable gas block and some guys reporting issues shooting suppressed with the MWS kinda turned me off to it a little, but otherwise I agree it’s a nice option for those who prefer AR ergos and manipulation if the KAC ECC/ACC is too pricey.

  3. There may be many other .308 offerings from 2-3k, but the only other id consider is the MWS.

30

An amusing but utterly accurate point - running the mags one-time-use with Federal GMM only ups the cost of each trigger pull by a percentage.

It’s more of a case that I think some more of the market will pick up - obviously not to 5.56 AR platform adoption levels, but the first really solid offering that isn’t competing directly with existing platforms that have been adopted by worldwide militaries (SCAR-H, LMT MWS) in that 2.5-2.8k price range, but offers something clearly better than the $1500-$1800 stuff that runs, but lacks the refinement of something most people are wanting when looking at something that’s going to set them back a buck or more with each trigger pull (blasting berms at 50ft doesn’t require a .308, but doing things where the .308 cartridge excels tends to require at least a somewhat precise barrel and the pricier ammunition… why not run a gun that feels like it’s making performance from that setup).

The MWS has some added possibilities that an adjustable gas block can be ran on that really well (since the removable barrel means the adjustable block doesn’t have to be super-accessible), which gets more use out of the barrel changing capability. It’s basically the standard to compare everything else against in the price range most people looking to pick up a .308 setup (myself included) are looking at, the only reason I’m looking at building an LR308 instead of buying a slick-sided MWS is that within the narrow capability set I intend to use mine for, I think I can build something lighter that is comparable on performance. I don’t consider the SCAR to be the comparison standard because it’s a different animal in many ways - it’s light compared to the precision setups, heavy compared to the simplistic setups, and the cost is only offset by the awesome added features like the folding stock if those actually get used.

I’m really close to the OP with regard to what I was looking at, I did wind up with a PredatOBR 7.62, but sold it with zero rounds down the pipe because it was very expensive for what I wanted to do with it, and swapping out the small parts to what I really wanted to run would have been a significant added cost (swapping trigger, furniture, charging handle). I think we’re at the point where there might be an obvious good answer (in the same way that between the BCM KMR equipped uppers, KAC SR-15 Mod1/2, DD V5/V11, and Noveske GenIII offerings the high performance portion of the 5.56AR market is spoiled for excellent choices)… the SCAR is unlikely to be that answer, for reasons that go well beyond my simply pointing out differences in control layout and magwell; the MWS is likely to be a large part of that ‘good answer’, but if something a bit less modular (i.e. just 16" free floated standard handguard on the same lower from LMT even) could be done cheaper and run really well, then we’re looking at a winner. The floating wildcard is whether the LR308 (DPMS Gen1) spec is the one that gets condensed to or not, it seems CMMG, PSA, AeroPrecision, and others are convinced that’s the case, but there are still outliers like the RRA, DPMS G2, and POF that still manage to get market share despite looking like technological dead ends to me.

31

Spare parts come from where?

Spare mags come from where and cost how much?

At some point building 2 PSA "AR-10"s for the cost of one SR 7.62 yields spare platforms and x2 weapons in the fight. If it is compared to the SCAR I can build 3 - with my cheapo PSA doing 95% of what the gold plated SCAR does, I guess I am not seeing a need for that last 5% of precision/capability. I have better access to spare parts and PMAG are everywhere.

Two is one, and one is none.

YMMV

USMA84DAB

32

Well I am probably more torn than ever on what to do. I think I have eliminated the SCAR but am giving consideration to LMT, Larue, or building. Build would be a good learning experience but expensive if I screw it up.

33

What he said, add a Geisselle and your cooking with gasoline

34

I went through this buying process a few weeks ago. Primary use is to replace a Noveske 5.56 and Browning A-bolt 308 for spot n’ stalk hog hunting on the ground in the thick palmetto groves here in central FL. It will also be used for deer and general plinking.

I thought about building, as I just helped a buddy build his AR-10 to replace his bolt gun for the same purpose, but sourcing the exact parts I wanted was shaping up to be a PITA, so I decided to research factory rifles.

Larue variants - I didn’t want to wait years for a rifle, so I quickly stopped considering them.

KAC - I live close to those guys, have shot with a few of them at carbine competitions, but at 5k, I just can’t justify the price.

SCAR 17s - Clearly the lightest, but that’s about all I cared for. I wasn’t a fan of the stock or the trigger. I felt like it needed a rail extension, and then there’s the proprietary mags. I know the trigger can be replaced, but that adds cost. A rail extension can be added, but again that adds cost and weight and now I’m messing with it’s greatest attribute. I just personally prefer the AR platform, so I was looking for reasons not to buy a SCAR, which told me the rifle isn’t for me.

I read good things about P308’s and REPR’s, but I’m a DI guy at heart.

I ended up buying an LMT MWS. Currently, I’m not interested in the caliber swapping ability of the MWS, so I put no value in that. Accuracy reports with a wide range of bullet weights in factory ammo are excellent, and since I don’t reload simply due to time, this was important. The two stage trigger isn’t exactly a Geissele, but it can be worked with for sure. Plus, I have an SSA I can drop in if need be. $17 Gen3 Pmags, check.

From the mounds of reading I did, the only recurring gripe on the MWS is weight. A few people had over gassing issues when shooting suppressed, but a heavier buffer has been found to be the cure. The listed weight also includes the LMT BUIS, and since hog hunting is a one way range, I won’t be needing BUIS’s, so those came off. Overall, the MWS is about a pound heavier than other comparable AR-10 variants, some more, some less, but I figured I’d just leave my purse at home and deal with it. With a Trijicon TR24 in an LT SPR-E mount, a few rail panels/LT index clips, TD QD stubby, and empty mag it’s 11.7 pounds of pure pig medicine.

The MWS is also the cheapest of all the others I considered, added bonus. For me, the positives far outweighed the negatives, no pun intended.

It’s really just personal preference.

35

What about the Colt LE/SP-901 ? Have you considered it ? Not as heavy as the LMT and it uses PMAGS.

36

For that kind of money I would want more. Best price I see on the colt is 2k.

I am actually doing research now and looking at building one. For about 2k I can get a bad ass rifle that has exactly what I want. I may just go that route.

37

I agree…I don’t get all the hate on the SCAR17S trigger. The thing is manufactured as a “battle rifle” not a super light triggered sniper rifle. I think it’s great for what it is and it’s very accurate. You mentioned length…one other to consider maybe is the 14.5" barreled POF .308 rifle. Same price range and very accurate. There are a few PD SWAT teams that are using the 14.5" model as their sniper rifle. A little lighter than the SCAR17…I think. Bottom line, I think you’d probably be very happy with either the LaRue, a SCAR or whatever. I don’t know or read about many rifles these days that are lousy. I think most if not all manufacturers have gotten the bugs worked out of the AR-10 type model.

38

Well since none of the original 3 I was considering quite seemed to match what I wanted, I have committed to building. Figure it will be a good learning experience as well since I’ve never built one. I just ordered the Mega arms MATEN Keymod extended set. I found a great deal here: http://www.capitolarmory.com/mega-arms-mkm-maten-keymod-upper-lower-set.html

$655 for the extended rifle set seemed like a no brainer given the reviews I have seen on it.

I’m still debating barrel, as I admit I have no clue what to look for, other than I want 16 inch and reasonably light weight. This was brought up in another thread:

https://www.rainierarms.com/?page=shop/detail&product_id=3459

I am leaning towards SSA-E trigger: http://tradingplacepawn.com/shop-online/by-brand/geissele/geissele-super-semi-automatic-enhanced-ssa-e.html

Here’s a LPK minus the trigger. I can’t find a LPK minus the grip, as I would prefer a different grip: http://www.brownells.com/rifle-parts/receiver-parts/parts-kits/308-lower-parts-kit-sku231000250-27207-53387.aspx

There is no official mil-spec BCG. I was told about this one but no idea if it is a quality piece: http://aeroprecisionusa.com/aspx/store/productdetail.aspx?pid=291

I suppose I could pay out the yin-yang for an LMT BCG, but not sure it is worth the $$: http://www.lmtstore.com/bolts-carriers-groups/bolts-carriers-and-groups-complete/lm308d.html

This BCG is in the mid-range: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1413131451/dpms-bolt-carrier-assembly-lr-308-308-winchester?cm_vc=ProductFinding

Zero clue here on if price difference on those BCGs means anything. Not exactly like buying from BCM, Colt, or DD, where you can buy it and know it is good.

Now that I’ve committed to building, feel free to chime in with thoughts. I’m a noob and this is my first build. I’ll pay a little extra to make this a nice rifle. My goal is to build it for less than I’d spend on an LMT MWS and wind up with a better rifle, or at least better to me!

39

Except the MWS has a proprietary barrel extension and some crazy method of attaching the gas block that basically cannot be undone.

This means it’s basically impossible to retrofit an LMT barrel with a new gas block and you can’t take an off the shelf .308 AR barrel and use it with an MWS.

Some people used to custom machine LMT barrel extensions, no idea who does it anymore though.

40

Marvin Pitts (Nefarious Arms) does LMT conversions. Service/price is listed on his 2014 service list.

The so-called “fix” is to replace the buffer spring, sell the 16" barrel and replace with an 18 or 20" barrel and have it cut to 16-17" depending on suppressor. The mod provides rifle(ish) length gas system instead of carbine(ish).

I swap barrels between a 13.5" with KAC mams pinned and a 17.25" and optics depending on what I’m doing. No problem with the 13.5" with carbine gas system and the KAC 762 QDC CQB suppressor.