The disgusting state of 1911 mfg's in 2007

General Firearms Handguns - 1911
1

I’m going to start off this post by saying that I’m really not the type of person that just goes off on internet tangets, ranting about every little thing but when it comes to the current crop of 1911’s on the market I just have to stop and look at the research I’ve done and ask “What the hell?”

Going back in time a ways to when I turned 21 I was fortunate enough to have a job where I made enough money to buy and trade a lot of handguns. I loved 1911’s and had owned them and had them in my family for my whole life. I went through a dozen different models of Colt .45 autos and never, not even once, did I have reliability issues with any of them. I just got them sale or trade, pulled them out of the box and started blasting away with them until I found something different I felt like trading for. No extractor this, or ejector that, or anything.

By the mid nineties I’d gotten primarily into Sig’s, Glocks, Berettas, etc. and wound up only keeping one nice Springfield Armory full size pistol that I’d had customized. So here we are in 2007 and I’m working plain clothes LE and decided I’d really like to get back to a 1911 in .45 acp. But the problem now is finding something that I have confidence in paying good money for that will function reliably and get me through a worst case social encounter should things ever come to that.

The Sig 1911 gets numerous complaints even on the boards focusing on Sig, The Kimbers I feel are seriously hit and miss. I realize they’re LAPD SWAT issue and USMC limited issue but I have a close friend who’s a dept. instructor on a local PD in the county I work in, we shoot together multiple times a week and he went through four different extractors in his full size pistol. Finally he had to send the entire thing in and over twelve weeks later got back the gun with a new internal extractor slide on it. (It does function well now.)

So I start looking around and doing research on light weight 1911’s, preferably of Commander sized length. I come across a Smith and Wesson 1911PD in a shop in Tulsa yesterday. A lot of nice features, a few simple things I’d change out like guide rod and hex head grip screws but overall a nice pistol in appearance with current features I like such as high sweep beavertail, flat mspg. housing, extended thumb safety, etc. Then I roll it over and there’s a freaking external extractor.

So, given my misgivings about external extractor 1911’s I noted the price (Which I thought was more or less reasonable enough.) and came home and spent most of last night researching the pistol. Sure enough as usual a lot of decent reviews but also a lot of complaints about…Their extractors…All of which contained the usual writings about the hassle of sending the gun in and a few with the customary “It had to be sent in several times”. Totally unacceptable to me.

I can’t understand why these companies can’t seem to get it right. So, I guess I’m taking some cold cash with me to the next big gunshow in about a month and a half and seeing what I can come up with in a Series 70 or 80 Colt Light weight commander. Or possibly a new XSE Commander.

As a side note I’ve also thrown myself into researching Colt frame cracking and the history surrounding that phenomenon…As far as I can tell the frame might possibly develop an 1/8th inch or so crack but at least it’ll likely fire and function.

Am I a solo act in feeling this way?

2

Is there really more problems or is their just reported problems?

I’ve always believed that the number of problems you hear about probably pales in comparison the actual number or problems.

3

I purchased a newer Colt Commander in Feb of this year. I experienced multiple FTF/FTE during my initial range visits when using Wilson Combat 7-round magazines (note: ran fine with factory Colt 7-round magazines).

Box stock accuracy was acceptable:

and tightened up considerably with the addition of a fitted Ed Brown bushing:

I’m still amazed at how well the factory barrel shoots in this pistol.

I sent the pistol off to for a little more work, and now she runs like a champ (Ed Brown hardcore slide stop and Tripp follower/spring kits in the Wilson mags solved the feed/eject issues).

good luck in your hunt!

4

That’s a beautiful piece. Wilson’s magazines are something else I won’t ever use again. After reading years of rave reviews on them I picked up several in the early 2000’s. Three of the four consistently failed to lock the slide back on the last round and when I received replacement parts for them one of the three never would function correctly.

On each of them the polymer follower wore down to where they wouldn’t engage any more. (Each of the initial three failing ones that is.)

Factory 7 round magazines have never given me problems in a lifetime of shooting these pistols since I was a kid.

And I realize that current Colt’s have some issues as well as other brands. A Detective on my dept. approached me about “fixing” his broken Colt Defender carry gun.

The magazine button had broken completely in two in the frame during a qualification run. That was a new one to me. I installed an old 80’s vintage piece to replace it that I had laying around a parts box and it’s ran fine since.

5

I am also disappointed with the overall QA/QC of 1911-pattern pistols today, but I also believe that overall (aside from the advent of some MIM parts) the situation is a lot better than it was 10 or 15 years ago. Nowadays you stand a good chance of getting a gun that runs out of the box from most of the better known manufacturers. The Colt’s I saw in the mid 1990s were almost always crap until they very briefly got smart and release the XS (not XSE) series, but then they discontinued the best guns they ever made.

There are also a lot more choices today. The competition really kicked-up a notch when Kimber hit the market and was selling essentially hand-built guns for a steal. So we have more variety and I think that most of the companies are producing better guns more consistently now.

6

Awhile back I took a 1911 Operators course by Hilton Yam and Ken Hackathorn.

Hiltons take, the 1911 was originally designed and manufactured when labor was cheap and technology was expensive, today the opposite is true.
The 1911, essentially needs to be handfit, and that costs money.

Matt, who recently returned from LAVs 1911 class, if I understand correctly, says the situation today, almost forces it, also. With the numbe of manufactures of guns, mags, and every part, all to various specs, leads to a situation where the gun has to be handfit, to get the most out of it.

I don’t think its a “1911” problem, as much as its a manufacture problem.

There is alot of good 1911 info at his sight 10-8performance.

FWIW, he doesn’t care for the Firing pin safety in the S&W’s. The problem with most external extractors is, they sit to high in the slide, he was working on a fix, but I’m not sure where he is on it.

Bob

7

Good points. I believe a lot of manufacturers believe they know more than JMB did and in reality they probably don’t.

I participate at M1911.ORG and there are sub-forums for several current 1911 manufacturers. What surprises me is this idea of “break-in.” Several manufacturers have advised members to shoot X number of break-in rounds through their guns whcih they say will shake out all the bugs from the gun.

Call me crazy, but I thought they were supposed to run right out of the box… I did have one FTE with my 07 produced 1991A1 due to an out of spec extractor claw. I suppose anyone can let a bad part get past QC.

8

That quote is exactly my point.

And I’m sure that Hilton is correct in what he’s saying about the cost of labor today vs the early 1900’s. And believing that to be part of the case I think that if modern manufacturers aren’t willing to pay the labor cost to have the pistol built correctly then they shouldn’t be playing in the market place game at all.

9

Not a 1911 guy, but it’s been my experience that pretty much everything except a Glock benefits from a break-in period.

10

The craftsmen that put together Colt and S&W handguns in the '50s and '60s and even earlier are all retired now. Both companies went downhill in the '70s and now most handgun mfgs. just look for ways to make them less expensive to build. Add the fear of liability and we have the 1911 of today. Cheaper parts and extra safeties do not make a good 1911. The only plus is CNC has tightened up some of the tolerances and we get better sights and ergo features. What ever you decide to get, have an experienced 1911 mechanic check it over and get it set up correctly for you.

:frowning: Billy

11

My Glock 19 also benifited from a “break in period”.

I’m with Bob. In a way, 1911 makers and 1911 parts makers are “digging their own grave.” There are so meny parts from so meny venders and every vender thinks their spec is the way to go. The only way to make sure you are GTG is to get it “fit” or get a gun built by a reliable maker. As Bob states, it is not the gun, but everything else.

Matt

12

Since I got into handguns, I have always had two anchors; the Glock 17, and a quality 1911. One is a modern service pistol, the other is a timeless design that can be easily conformed to meet an individual shooter’s needs. I have never confused the two. I rarely look at my Glock or it’s magazines, but I always inspect my various 1911s and their seemingly endless magazines. I detail strip them regularly, inspect sear angles, barrrel feet, links, and safeties. I havent detail stripped my Glock in years. Have you ever heard of a shooter or gunsmith refer to a Glock’s “timing”? That’s laughable!

I don’t care about the state of current 1911 manufacture because, frankly, it doesn’t affect me. I don’t buy production guns, nor do I recommend them. Buy a base gun, a “semi” custom, or a custom 1911 if you are a true 1911 afficianado. If you aren’t willing to commit to the money, or the time to learn and truly understand the design, than you should buy something else. I am not being a snob, just being honest. The gun industry is pushing 1911s because they are huge money makers, but they are not for everyone. Be honest with yourself and make the best decision for you.

13

dubb I think you completely have the wrong picture of me. Of the two 1911’s I presently own one is a 1941 vintage Colt A1 and the other is a custom built Springfield Armory that I sank well over 1k into back in 1997. I’m sure it would cost far more to duplicate it today but mindset wise it’s there.

My point has nothing at all to do with not wanting to put money into something. My point is it’s unacceptable to me to put something on the market and expect anyone to plunk down their money for it and it not run correctly.

That '41 Colt has had absolutely nothing changed on it or done to it and it runs just as well in today as it did then.

All I want is a simple Lightweight Commander that fires and functions out of the box. I don’t think I’m asking too much.

14

My post was not a reflection of you, but a reflection of the current state of affairs when it comes to 1911s. When I typed “you” it was in the general sense, I was not referring to “one on Grant’s forum”. OK? Most production 1911s are shit, and it is totally unacceptable, but it really doesn’t affect me. That’s the Reader’s Digest version.:wink:

15

I don’t care about the state of current 1911 manufacture because, frankly, it doesn’t affect me. I don’t buy production guns, nor do I recommend them.

Same here…

Mace

16

I personally think 1911 manufacturing is at a golden age. However one has to PAY to get one. There are a number of excellent 'smiths/shops that put out an outstanding product.
And even for the hobbyist builder - there are a great deal of parts and information out there to help.

I personally would not trust ANY handgun without a “break-in” period of a few hundred rounds (ideally 1k). Sure odds are a Glock19 will run out of the box - but before I stake my life on something I personally want to know it will run.

17

I’m not sure… but are you complaining about a problem or problems that you haven’t actually experienced yet? Don’t believe half of the Internet hype, for every guy on the net complaining there are hundreds, perhaps even thousands of satisfied customers.

If I were to buy another 1911 I would look at a traditional Colt Series 70 or 80, or perhaps the enhanced XSE series is a light weight Commander was in the cards.

I have a couple of Series 80 Colts, a Government and a Commander that have run perfectly with original factory components for tens of thousands of rounds.

Cameron

18

Why does the 1911 market suck?

Because no one has filled the void between production and custom. Semi custom simply doesn’t exist, though some claim it does.

I just wish someone offered a 1911 with a basic fit, tool steel internals, and a fair price tag. If you can buy a production 1911 with a basic fit and crap internals for $700-$800, tool steel internals for $200-$300, why can’t someone offer a no frills 1911 with decent parts for $1200-$1400.

Then again, this all coming from the guy who’s dream 1911 uses stuff like a 4.25" BBL, a light rail, an integral plunger tube, and a big honking external extractor. :stuck_out_tongue:

19

Grant is a S&W dealer and seems to like their EE if any 1911 is going to have one. Kimber’s EEs didn’t fare to well as your smithy friend noted so they switched back to internal.

I’d like to have an EE model but I went with Kimber and the IE will suffice just fine. :cool:

20

Steve has built several. His 1911s are basic workhorses that should be offered by companies all over. You won’t see them advertised, you have to drop an e-mail to inquire. Contact me or Steve directly.