I thought I had started a thread like this before, but all I could find were threads on specific optics.
I am at a crossroads.
Every optic I try has advantages and disadvantages as one would expect, but in your opinion is there one military or SHTF grade optic suitable in all situations and that has limitations you can easily live with?
After trying red dots, reflex sights, variables, and a smattering of gimmicks like the C-More sight, I’ve decided I think the Aimpoint micros or Trijicon MRO’s fit the bill.
–Reflex sights, although not battery-powered, have reticle washout issues.
–Battery powered sights like the Aimpoint have a long enough battery life to overcome the fact that they are not “battery-free”
–Variables have a lot of utility but tend to be heavy. Let them manufacture a 1-4 variable with Tritium and fiber optic and only weighs as much as an
Aimpoint micro–and I’M THERE.
I actually emailed Trijicon asking them to make a 1X optic with simple reticle and not needing battery power. They replied back that they don’t reveal future product plans, but I found it interesting that the RMR came out a few months later.
So, what say you? What optic do you think has the best overall benefits versus its limitations.
PLEASE BE SPECIFIC.
I start these threads to get specific information. Please don’t just say you like sucn-and-such and leave it at that. Please tell us why you love an optic or why others are inadequate.
If you post just to agree with someone, please state that you agree with what particular point they made and don’t just post “I like such and such optic too.”
I’ll bite. I use 2 setups. One is a vortex uh1 with magnifier, the other is a 1-4 accupoint red triangle. I feel the accupoint is the closest to an ideal do-it-all optic. Eye releif is decent as is eye box, no batteries, relatively light weight. The downsides are that past 400 yards it becomes harder to use as the the post is thick and makes holdovers more difficult compared to scopes with finer bdc/mil/moa lines. The other downside is it’s a scope and has eye releif. In comes the uh1 with magnifier. With the uh1 close stuff is much easier especially from odd shooting positions. Add the 3x magnifier and it allows for easier 300 - 400 yard shooting. This also comes at a penalty of battery runtime and weight. I prefer Holo sights for use with magnifiers as they play nice together. I deal with the battery issue by using a rechargable and plugging it in every few weeks. I would grab either honestly if “shtf”. If I felt access to power or batteries to be an issue for longer than the uh1 will run realistically with a few spare batteries then there are bigger fish to fry than what optic I have on my carbine.
Eta. I should proof read before posting…
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All things are a compromise. Which you covered well. I personally have a mix of aimpoint micros, Trijocon MROs, variables and ACOGs.
Best all round for every day use for me would be a 1-4 in a lightweight mount. Not extremely heavy but gives me a fairly good range of use. But as I said it is a huge compromise. Heavier than a micro red dot, not as powerful as a more modern 1-8, and not as durable as an ACOG.
Now if we are talking a shtf type scenario than I would choose an ACOG. fixed power which sucks. But no batteries to worry about and is as durable as a tank. Even once the tritium dies you still have the fiber optics for day to day use. And zero electronics to worry about.
If we are just dreaming then yeah I would love an true 1x style ACOG. But nobody has made one that really fits the bill yet.
Right now: Razor GEN II HD-E. If they made a 1-4 version that was exactly the same scope but smaller and lighter, I’d say that one. The P4Xi is a solid 1-4 alternative, but definitely not in Razor territory. This is the best all around optic I think, for reasons that are well understood here. The only downsides to it are price and weight, but the glass is super clear, eye box and FOV are awesome, good brightness, durable as hell, etc. Its best all around because it is so good at doing something that no RDS can, at least not by itself and pairing an RDS with magnifier has more cons than the Razor, IMO. If Vortex found some way to make it even lighter and have battery life drastically improve (match Aimpoints maybe?), I don’t think anyone would answer this question differently. Plus, and potentially my number one reason for loving LPVOs more than RDS, is that there is still a very usable reticle if the battery dies.
Keep in mind that I have at least one each of Aimpoint, EOTech, and RMR. My T-2 will likely never be replaced on the HD gun because its a dedicated LW build for my wife (and I prefer the eye relief/eye box simplicity of an RDS for her), so obviously the shooter will come into play. I also don’t think LPVO for general issue MIL/LEO is a good idea. But best all around optic for a relatively serious shooter - Razor.
“Best” is mission/task oriented. There is no one, best, optic that will excel at CQB and at 600 yds.
For me;
0-100 is RD, UNLESS you throw in a partial headshot/hostage scenario.
100-300/400 is LPV: 1-4
400-and out is 2-10/12X or similar
There is overlap with all of above.
I know you asked for “the best”, I don’t have that answer. I think that’s why I have an absurd number of guns.
I know that at home, in town, I grab a 14.5” gun with MRO if need arises.
At the ranch I grab one with a 1-4 Accupoint- distances may/will be greater.
I have one of those on my SCAR16 and don’t like it as much as I thought I would. It’s a 1.5x so I don’t find it as fast as a non-magnified RDS at close range; especially while shooting on the move. Since it’s 1.5x, it doesn’t provide much additional magnification for target ID. The fiber optic reticle provides good illumination under bright sunlight, but can be hard to see when shooting into bright sunlight from shade. I much prefer having control over a red dot’s brightness, even though it uses batteries.
If I had to pick one ‘do it all’ optic, I’d pick a 1-4 or 1-6 LPVO, because while it’s heavier and bulkier, it extends the usable distance of an AR for me because of the ability to identify a target. My eyes are getting older, and a RDS is only good to what I can see with my naked eyes, which is limiting nowadays. I don’t like non-battery RDS because of the dependence on ambient lighting conditions, so I’m fine with a LPVO with daylight visible red dot like the P4xi, and etched reticle should the battery run out. An Aimpoint or Eotech is useless without a battery.
Each choice has compromises, but the LPVO with daylight visible red dot like the P4xi checks more boxes for me:
target identification
astigmatism
daylight visible red dot with controllable brightness
etched reticle
extended range over non-magnified RDS
eyepiece (diopter) adjustment to sharpen reticle and dot
Have you considered getting a magnifier and swapping it gun to gun if you want/need magnification?
Gives you some of the benefits of a low powered variable with an emphasis on 1x shooting.
Man oh man, what a can of worms. An ACOG with RDS on top is hard to beat. Very hard to beat, I ran that and loved it. You have to cheek weld the RDS but was never a problem for me. I recently bought a Nightforce 1-8 and feel that its only downside is $$$$. Ive got minimal experience but its awesome. I mean awesome. Its the NXS version vs the ATACR version. The ATACR vs NXS has been beaten to death, so go to optics forum if you want to learn that difference.
I think your whole post is solid, but I cut it to the last paragraph.
I think a LPVO is a great all around optic even for a less than serious shooter.
The optics on my “HD/Civil Unrest” guns are modest compared to yours, but I think you absolutely nailed the advantages of both the RDS and LPVO.
I have a Aimpoint PRO on the 16" AR I keep in my bedroom closet and a Trijicon Accupower 1-4x on the 16" AR I keep in the other safe.
I really like the idea I can just turn on the RDS and deal with a bump in the night situation. I don’t even have to open the lens covers to shoot at close range.
With my eyesight, precision at 75+ yards requires some magnification and that is where the LPVO shines.
Since the odds of my shooting a coyote or deer with my AR are orders of magnitude higher than the odds of using a gun for self defense, the LPVO is the most logical all-around optic for ME.
The Steiner P4Xi made me dump reflex sights from my carbine.
Objectively (timer) I’m even faster with it than I am with a reflex sight (Aimpoint PRO) in my standard set of close range (5 to 7 yards) drills with equal or better accuracy.
5 yd presentations from low ready to a 3x5 card, average of 10 runs, Steiner: .72 sec, Aimpoint: .76 sec. Double taps to the same 3x5 card at 5 yds and target transitions at 7 yards are also as fast or faster with the P4Xi.
Battery life is a non-issue. The Steiner works without batteries.
PS, there is no “training” needed to transition from an RDS to a LPVO. If you need training for that, you probably need training to open a door too.
I have two sixteen inch BCM’s. One with the Aimpoint pro and one with a Leupold VX-r pro 1.5-4. The one with the Aimpoint I use for home defense and classes. The other with the Leupold I use for two and three gun matches, had that scope for over a year now and I really like it. Fast up close and I have shot it out to 6oo yards so far. Hits are easy once you have your holds. At first I didn’t like the thick reticle but it has grown on me, not great for absolute precision but it is fast and I can shoot both eyes open with it.
A lot of people are switching to the smaller micro sights, and it is a rather bulky unit, but it’s also built like a tank. I’m not one of these “save 1.3 ounce” guys. I’m also not so much worried about recoil as I am my gun taking a tumble. Ruggedness counts big for me. If it gets dropped, kicked, or banged around in the back of a truck (or even out of it while driving)… I’m golden. I know it will still work. I’m retired now and will never go on the offense, so I’ll never need to shoot my AR for anything other than self defense. That’s almost always gonna be a close range deal, unless I’m dealing with a nation state having overrun our borders, or full scale SHTF, and raiders laying in wait…
Besides, I can always flip over the multiplier, and see out farther.
It’s hard to beat an aimpoint of any flavor, but for a do it all I like a little magnification. Personally I like the TA33 as much as anything on the market, it’s lighter than most acogs, with longer eye relief.
All engineering solutions are probably compromises. When you enter in a series of parameters, you are shopping for an engineered solution. Aimpoint at $700.00?? What about the Primary Arms push-button, micro red dot, 50K battery life, $159.00?
I’ve come to the point where I don’t care for RDS or holographic sights at all any more for two reasons:
They rely on a battery and absolutely can not function without it.
I have astigmatism and they don’t play well with my eyesight.
I have also tried the 1.5x ACOG and don’t care for it either. IMO it has enough magnification to be annoying but not enough to be beneficial. I feel Trijicon would have done better to make it as close to true 1x as possible.
Nowadays I prefer something with an etched reticle. Illumination is great but an optic with an etched reticle is still useful if the battery dies or the electronics fail.
On the fixed 1x side there’s not a lot to pick from. I’ve tried the Vortex Spitfire 1x and had good luck with it. It’s currently on loan to my father-in-law. I’m currently trying out the Primary Arms 1x Cyclops. So far I really like it, even a bit more than the Spitfire. The ACSS reticle is useful for range estimation and bullet drop compensation but in all honesty I feel those aspects are mostly wasted on me. Unfortunately both of these are low cost options made in China. I haven’t had any issues with either one but I don’t know how durable they’ll prove to be in the long run. Things I’ve seen online, like the review by Mrgunsngear, are favorable. Assuming they’re able to hold up these are nice options if you want something other than a RDS/holographic but still want to keep the weight down.
Now we come to LPVOs. IMO these are truly the king of do-all optics. Etched, illuminated reticles combined with magnification anywhere from 4x up to 8x allows you to do pretty much anything. Most of the better ones are very close to true 1x so they’re good up close and shooting with both eyes open isn’t difficult. They continue to work even if the battery dies. Drawbacks include size, weight, eye relief, and eye box. IMO size and weight are well worth the trade for the capabilities these optics bring to the table. Eye relief and eye box vary somewhat from scope to scope but IMO are manageable without much problem.
Currently I have a Vortex Viper PST 1-4 and a Trijicon Accupower 1-8. I’ve also had a Vortex Razor 1-6 and briefly tried a NF NXS 1-4. The only one I didn’t really care for was the NF and that’s only because I didn’t care for the reticle in it.
I feel if you’re going to run a LPVO then a good throw lever is pretty much mandatory. I like that some manufacturers are either integrating them directly into the scope or including a lever that screws in/out.