The Armed Citizen And Law Enforcement...

General General Discussion
21

This seems to be derailing into a “bag on SteyrAUG fest”, so I want to try to bring it back to it’s original theme by making two points.

  1. In scenarios B and C, the CCer has already shot someone (justifiably) who may or may not be dead, injured, unconscious, etc. Let’s presume for the sake of argument the CCer is neither psychic, nor an M.D. and cannot determine just by looking at the person they’ve shot whether or not they still represent a potential threat - given this context it would seem only reasonable to me to keep your weapon drawn in the event the threat attempts to continue the fight (possibly by producing a handgun he hadn’t previously) until police arrive and secure the situation. This hypothetical business of “I’ll only draw if I have to kill them, and if I do, I will certainly achieve an instant kill and will therefore be totally comfortable re-holstering my weapon” is far too exclusionary.

  2. Sometimes people make mistakes and things can spiral out of control quickly (as in SteyrAUG’s anecdote). Arguing that questions relating to very possible hypothetical situations shouldn’t be asked because “you shouldn’t get into that situation in the first place” is the very opposite of helpful, particularly since I believe these questions are being asked to get a better understanding of how LEOs react to the legally armed citizen and what LEOs want/expect from them if an incident (for whatever reason) occurs.

I, for one, am still interested in seeing further answers from LEOs on this board regarding the original post.

22

The reason I suggest cooperation is because you haven’t killed anyone, so the other people are still alive/conscious to tell whatever lies about you and the situation they want. And depending on how good a story they have fabricated, they could easily end up going free while you end up in jail waiting for your lawyer because you wanted to CYA.

Without independent witnesses and physical evidence, arrests will be made based on the testimony of those present. And if the person pointing the gun at people refuses to talk, but the other guys present a believable story about how they were assaulted by a loony gunman, you can guess how things may go down. Sure, your lawyer could probably make things right in the long run, but waiting around for him when a simple explanation could get things wrapped up right away seems kind of silly. Especially if you haven’t done anything wrong.

That said, I fully support constitutional rights, but some common sense goes a long way. Cops don’t want to arrest the wrong person, and being upfront with them can help make sure mistakes aren’t made.

23

If I see a defenseless person that I believe to be in possible danger I will stop…

24

I think this is dependent on your locale. In most states with Castle Doctrine (key condition), both perps are indeed bought and paid for, so to speak. Not that I’m condoning shooting of anyone just for the heck of it, but if you were to shoot the purported 14 year-old, you wouldn’t be found guilty (at least not in most parts of Tennessee, Texas, Florida, etc.).

25

Going to jail for a few hours is much better than giving out statements in the aftermath of an extremely stressful situation that can be used against you to put you in jail for decades. Eyewitnesses, including participants, are very poor at remembering what actually happened.

26

I see your point, but that sort of differs in principal compared to “holding” someone at gunpoint, as you said originally. It’s one thing to draw a weapon with the intent of deterring, but that’s completely different from drawing a weapon and holding someone there until police arrive.

As I said originally, if I draw my weapon, it’s because I’ve made the decision that killing the threat is acceptable. Not that you have to follow through with the shot, but in my opinion, having made the decision that killing is indeed justified is the ONLY reason to draw, not before. Having said that, if police are to be involved past that point, it should be either to bring body bags or to take your report on the perps that “ran away,” not to come see you holding someone at gunpoint. If you do end up holding someone there until the police arrive, then it becomes a he-said she-said lie-fest. And, unfortunately for most of us, the riff-raff you just thwarted tend to reproduce at a much higher rate than the general population, so when it comes down to it, they’ll have more brothas, sistas, and baby-mommas who can testify “they were there and saw everything” than you will. It’s lose-lose 99.9% of the time.

Sure, even I would draw my weapon in your scenario, but that’s because 1) they posed a threat 2) A reasonable person would assume there was a threat and 3) I’d be doing so in self-defense, the same requirements for using lethal force in many states. At that point, I’ve determined that a) I can shoot and b) I will shoot if needed, but to save myself a ton of trouble, I won’t do so unless they do more to escalate the situation, as it just complicates matters for me. Drawing with the intention of “holding them there,” however, is nothing but a can of worms.

I’d draw and warn them to leave, shooting if they came closer and holstering if they drove away; I would not, however, hold them at gunpoint and then call for police help.

Just my .02.

27

I couldn’t agree more. There is a reason even police officers do not give statements after a shooting for at least 24 hours and often times 48 or 72 here in Las Vegas. When they do decide that they are going to be giving a statement they also have the benefit of using very experienced lawyers, union reps and many senior police personnel who know how to articulate what happened and use the best verbage to help insulate their actions. They do this for a very good reason, prison sucks.

jklaughrey gave great advice on the 1st page of this thread, follow it.

28

At 3 in the AM, with your GF in the car, and no cell phone? Unless I see her getting attacked, I’m driving to the next exit or stopping a safe distance away (about a 100 yards) to signal for help.

In terms of the scenarios, there are very few reasons to be found outside of your home by LEOs pointing your gun at the person you just shot. You first priority is to incapacitate the attacker so that you can escape. This means running to a safe location and calling 911, or driving to police station if you have a car. Hanging around the scene just inreases the chances of further confrontation with your attacker or their friends.

29

Thank you, that is exactly the kind of useful perspective I was looking for.

And I think that is why most of us will say something along the lines of “I wish to be cooperative but I need to speak to an attorney.”

30

I can get us on the same page. When I drew I “expected I would have to shoot.” In every situation I’ve been in I’ve expected and have been willing to shoot and kill. The reality is that willingness on my part resulted in a situation that was controllable. At any time I expected the situation could ramp up and force me to shoot. It’s kind of ironic how a willingness to do something often makes such actions unnecessary.

As to hold or release. If I’ve got guys down and can see hands, I’d just assume maintain that situation and wait if their actions permit than run the risk of telling them to haul ass and one of them coming up shooting. To me it is actually more dangerous and stressful to release them than to simply maintain a hold.

That I had something of a working relationship with LE during many of my instances probably conditioned me to control and wait for the cavalry.

31

State laws, best practices, and responses from LE are going to vary too widely to make this is as productive as the OP hoped. The scenario stuff just doesn’t work.

Suffice it to say that regardless of where you are and what you’re involved in, when you are the object of police interest/scrutiny, in no particular order…

[ul]
[li]identify yourself immediately and your role (victim, witness, etc)[/li][li]do exactly what you are told, when you are told[/li][li]if told to move, do it smoothly and obviously, but not suddenly[/li][li]otherwise, don’t move[/li][li]do not argue, explain, or try to “but…, but…”[/li][li]don’t expect your CCW (or a badge, as applicable) to mean a thing[/li][li]have empty hands whenever possible, or empty them according to instruction[/li][li]pack a lunch, resolution may take awhile[/li][/ul]

I understand the say-nothing school of thought. I agree with it in part. I prefer to look at the cost:benefit of talking, formed by considering the incident type, report, actions, any other variables, and the quality of local LE that’s responding. In some cases, a brief preliminary statement of what happened will go a long way toward resolution of the matter. Sometimes, it will be best to simply be quiet and speak with an attorney. Be realistic though. Good guys and innocent people do indeed ask for attorneys, but your responding cops and detectives will have heard it more often from the guilty.

Pre-event preparations are important. Know which attorney you will reach out to, and/or give that information to family. Know which family members to call. Consider where your bond money may come from, or which assets you can use as collateral if needed. Don’t store this info solely in your cell phone. Depending on the incident, it will likely be collected as evidence and you’ll be denied access to it.

When you leave your house, look like an upstanding citizen. A clean, neatly dressed, groomed person will draw less attention and scrutiny from LE pre- or post-event.

Above all else: Live a life that avoids people and places likely to generate conflict and uses of force.

32

Depends. Many departments will at least ask officers to give a brief statement as to what happened, ie: “Guy came at me with a knife, I was standing there, and shot him.” The nitty gritty of what happened gets ironed out after talking to a lawyer and a union rep.

Its up to you, but a very brief statement along those lines can help separate you from the mopes at the scene.

One of the best things you could do is call the scene in yourself, or have a companion do it. Explain, where you are, advise what medical resources are needed, and what you look like. That gives the responders a good start as to who’s who.

33

Double post.

34

I agree, a brief factual statement, will benefit your position with the officers on scene, possibly. I’m not saying completely clam up and don’t say shit but definitely minimize the amount you run your mouth. People say stupid shit unintentionally all the time and especially after a shooting incident.

You have Miranda Rights, the 5th Amendment, and if you don’t exercise them you will suffer the consequences.

You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say or do can and will be held against you in a court of law.

EDIT: I also mentioned that jklaughrey, an LEO, gave great advice on pg. 1 and to follow it. Between his and skintop’s advice people should be good to go.

35

If only that were as easily done as said, sometimes many things aren’t up to you.

36

Very true. As for the 5th amendment, you’d be surprised how many times I have to explain to citizens that they can stop talking, and how to ask for a trial, as opposed to just paying a fine.

37

I’m not LE, but from speaking to my LE friends about this kind of stuff, they pretty much know who’s good/bad right away. When I CCW, I feel like my senses are amplified & I’m on the defensive way more than I would be without my pistol.

For one, in any of your scenarios, the cops are going to arrive with guns drawn on everyone. I’d put myself in a compliant position such as hands over my head, drop to my knees, pistol still in my hand but in a non threatening fashion to retain control over your weapon as it’s your responibility, and make sure the cops know I have a CCW ASAP. Either way you are going to have a Glock or Sig pointed at your melon without a doubt. Move slowly so you don’t spook anyone. Try not to piss yourself.

38

I would highly suggest not having a pistol in your hand. Either have it holstered by the time the police arrive or don’t have it anywhere near your hands. Guns in non-uniformed hands make officers very jumpy.

39

If I may, I’d like to ask a question about a less lethal scenario. What is the LEO consensus on dealing with a CCW holder during a routine traffic stop? My example: I was once pulled over for speeding in my hometown. As a matter of courtesy and a non-verbal manner of saying “I have a gun”, I gave the officer my drivers license & my carry permit. I was then asked to get out of the car and stand outside behind my vehilcle. The officer was polite, but firm. He the asked me where the weapon was located, found it, unloaded it and took it back to his car while I waited. He then ran a check on the serial number of the gun, or so I was told. After he was satisfied, I was allowed to leave with a warning for speeding. I believe I was let off with a warning because the officer recognized me from a call at my office a few weeks prior. My question is this: should I have allowed a search of my vehicle and inspection of my gun? Note: I had nothing to hide and wasn’t initially concerned over this incident. However, since that time I have reflected on this many times. I wonder if I made the right decision by indicating that I had a weapon and if the officer had a right to run a check on the gun.

40

Actually brother, I am less scared of a citizen with a gun in front of me, and more scared of the “Ricky Rambo” cop behind me. Have you been to a LE qual. range lately…:eek: it can be downright unsettling.