The Armed Citizen And Law Enforcement...

General General Discussion
1

Since we have a significant LE community here I think us regular folks can get some valuable training/insight.

I have more than a few experiences which involved firearms and responding officers. Thankfully the vast majority went very well and the handful of iffy ones weren’t as bad as they could have been.

To the best of my research there are no hard and fast rules and the laws are kinda vague leaving enforcement somewhat to the discretion of the policy of the agency and the understanding of the responding officers.

With the increase of CCW and armed citizens in general, especially considering many states adopting “stand your ground” laws the likelihood of an armed individual dealing with a “bad guy” at gun point and awaiting police is something every person who carries a gun should think about.

Most of us worry about the threat of legal ramifications if we feel compelled to draw or shoot a weapon. But if you do the police response incorrectly you may not get that far. While some CCW classes attempt to tell you “when” you can and cannot employ lethal force, very few have much advice on what to do specifically when police arrive.

So if you are LE please share what you think an armed citizen should do upon your arrival to help you differentiate the good guys from the bad guys, promote the safety of the good guys and promote the safety of the responding officers. Please also cite your city/state and and specific statues that you can reference that would apply. Please address the following scenarios.

In every scenario the armed individual will prove to be licensed and lawfully armed with no prior arrests of any kind. You will of course not know that during the initial contact.

Scenario A: An armed individual has drawn his weapon to protect himself from attackers armed with knives and has them held at gun point. Other bystanders called police to report the incident. Officers arrive to find a single gunman pointing it at two individuals laying down on the sidewalk.

Scenario B: An armed individual has shot a carjacker. He and other individuals have called the police to report the incident. Officers arrive to find a single gunman pointing his weapon at an individual on the ground who appears to have been shot.

Scenario C: An armed individual has intervened in what he believes was a rape in progress. When confronted the alleged rapist charged the gunman and the gunman fired several shots. Several bystanders who heard the gunshots called police with widely varying accounts of what is happening. Officers arrive to find a gunman pointing his weapon at a man who appears to be dead and a hysterical woman with no pants.

Scenario D: A property owner has called police to report suspicious trespassers at 1am. When police arrive the armed homeowner has two individuals on the ground held at gun point.

Please note that in all of the above scenarios the gunman is dealing with a potential “ongoing threat” that makes him compelled to hold them at gunpoint up until the police arrive. What should he do now that they have arrived? How would you as the responding officer deal with each scenario?

2

Everyone gets proned out, then everyone gets detained in cuffs. Conduct interviews, then release/make arrests accordingly. If the CCW holder follows commands when officers arrive and is helpful with the investigation, they very likely will not have a thing to worry about and will be on their way in a relatively short amount of time.

3

First I appreciate you taking the time to respond. I thought I’d see a lot more participation from the LE guys with this topic. But I do have one issue I’d like to raise.

I fully understand your first point about following commands. Cops don’t know who is who and once they arrive they can control the situation, the armed citizen no longer has to.

But I have some deep concerns about the idea you seem to be promoting that the armed citizen needs to assist with the investigation in order to avoid problems.

What if that individual simply states that he wishes to be cooperative but can’t say anything until he speaks to his attorney? Is he then going to become a “bad guy” in your mind? Is he going to receive different treatment than a guy who tells the whole story?

I understand the perspective of the LEO, he wants to sort it out and separate the good guys from the bad guys and do his job. But sadly in this modern world where legal issues can become more important than right and wrong I think the average “good guy” who is forced to use a weapon to defend himself, his property or other innocents is gonna want to cover his ass legally.

4

The best way that you can be helpful with the investigation is to not provide any statements until advised by your lawyer. There is nothing that you are going to say to the responding officers that is going to shorten the amount of time necessary to dispose of the situation in the event you shoot someone in self-defense. In fact, such early statements are often poorly worded, hampered by emotion and generally increase the chances of some charges. You should be polite, but answer all questions as follows, “I acted to defend my life from a threat of serious bodily harm and death. I wish to speak to a lawyer before making any further statements.” You should resist the natural tendency to provide an early explanation of the situation.

If you are injured, ask to be taken to a hospital, but be very careful what statements you put in the medical record. You medical record is not privileged.

Keep in mind that the responding officers will not be the ones charging you with a crime in instances where there is a reasonable chance that you acted in self-defense. It will be the DA who decides if you are charged, and poorly conceived early statements are a great way to give an anti-gun DA ammunition for a conviction.

5

I notice in everyone of your secnarios, it somehow involves holding someone at gunpoint.

I would go ahead and get that idea out of your head.

Your responsibility as an armed citizen is to defend your life and the lives of others. You are under no duty to catch anyone. Don’t think for one f’n minute a criminal will submit to you just because you are pointing a gun and them. For many of them, shitheads, they have survived numerous shootings and have had guns pointed at them before.

You are under no duty to “hold” anyone anywhere. Your purpose is to defend your life. One that immediate threat is removed, it changes the situation.

I wouldn’t point my gun at anyone I didn’t have the legal recourse to shoot. A trespasser? In Missouri trespassing 2nd degree isn’t even a crime, its classified as an infraction. If I can’t shoot you for it, my gun isn’t getting pointed at you. Guns aren’t to hold people. That shit only works in movies. Lot’s of people in the world who haven’t tasted the sweet life in the suburbs, won’t bat an eye to having a gun pointed at them.

Let me tell you something about making arrests too, if there will be a fight, its going to be when that person (suspect) feels their sense of freedom slip away.

You need to know and understand the laws concerning a citizens use of deadly force (and of weapons & firearms) for your state. They can vary wildly across borders. Not so much in spirit but terminology. Its also worth noting that when a LEO and a citizen can use force, is different.

Knowing what I know now, having been around the system, I would ask to speak to an attorney before making a formal statement. Provide basic information, name, date of birth etc, and calmly state that you were acting in self defense, and would like to make a statement after consulting with an attorney. Don’t be a dick about it, but don’t risk saying something stupid. Small facts can make a huge difference.

Just the way you articulate these things, can make a difference.

The biggest problem is not that you are going to be wrong, its going to be that you don’t know how to explain it adequately.

If you are going to carry concealed, I think a good idea is to bring a cell phone as well, so that you can call the police and let them know what you are wearing, brief description etc…More or less let them know you are a good guy from the get go.

6

State laws are too varied to come to a consensus on an issue like this.

And I don’t think holding a gun on someone is equal to deadly force. If that were true felony stops would mean you can basically execute the person just because they are wanted on a felony charge.

7

Well if you AREN’T standing there with a gun when the police arrive then there really is no point to this thread.

In Scenario A if the individual draws his gun and his attackers haul ass, the armed citizen holsters his weapon and calls the police and there is no concern on his part.

The entire point of this thread is those specific situations where the police arrive and YOU have your gun out. It isn’t about being Batman and patrolling Gotham looking to catch crooks. It is about what to expect if you find yourself in a worst case scenario where you have to use your gun and you are standing there with a gun when police arrive.

I agree completely.

8

Outstanding post, sir.

9
  1. Have ID/CCW held in hand above head clearly visible to responding LE
  2. Remain Calm
  3. Follow Directions
  4. Make all movement/gestures slow/deliberate under direction of LE.
  5. Speak clearly and keep answers short.
  6. Only give enough info so that “we” know you aren’t the “bad guy”.
  7. Respond with standard…life in danger/bodily harm blah blah.
  8. Ask to speak with your attorney
  9. Be cooperative and courteous
  10. Don’t be “THAT GUY”.

Cheers

10

I’m by no means LEO nor have I been in a confrontation involving lethal force. That said, why pull a gun on someone just to “hold them there”? If you’re going to pull a gun on someone, it better be to kill them (legally justified, of course), nothing less. Doing anything else extends the confrontation, ads a crap-ton more liability to you, and can potentially backfire.

If I pull my gun, it’s because you’ve forced me to decide I need to kill you. Anything less and I’m not drawing my gun.

11

I think the first time I ever “pulled a gun” was when I moved back to FL from Iowa. My gf and I were coming back from the clubs in South Beach around 3 or 4 am. As I was shooting up I95 I noticed a car on the side of the road with a young female standing beside it.

This was in pre cell phone days and my first thought was “My god she won’t last 5 minutes out her before she is robbed or raped.” I pulled over about 15 feet behind her. My intention was to give her a ride to the next exit where she could call for help. I didn’t have a carry permit at the time but I did have a handgun in my vehicle in a holster between the seats.

No sooner than I was outside my car several large black males piled out of her car and ran towards me. I reached into the car and pulled my handgun and the closest one came to a stop about six feet from me.

They had not “yet” become a lethal threat, for all I knew they were running up to me to thank me for stopping to help them. But I strongly believe that I saved my life and that of my gf by pulling a gun.

As none of them had visible weapons, I really wasn’t in a position to “kill them all” for the possible threat they posed. But at the same time I didn’t wish to wait for them to have hands on me before I dealt with the threat that was brewing.

So I completely disagree with your position. I can think of several examples where one would produce a weapon to address / eliminate a threat but at the same time the threat has not manifested itself enough to become a “shoot now” situation. This is also why police officers don’t shoot everyone they draw on.

If you wait until it is time to start shooting people to take steps to protect yourself, you might find you waited too long and it is no longer an option. I’ve been in enough bad situations to know how fast things can devolve.

12

This pretty much sums up my thoughts.

While it’s permissible in Montana to make a “citizen’s arrest” using reasonable force, that does not extend to deadly force. Folks have held suspects at gunpoint till the law arrived (http://www.kulr8.com/news/local/60428862.html) but it seems like a good way to turn a bad situation into an even worse one real quick.

13

There are many times where it is justified to draw, but firing is a grey area.

2 perps break into your house, one is mid 20’s, veteran of the trade so to speak. With him is his apprentice, 14 year old kid looking for a little trouble. If the kid is cooperative, could you dispatch him on the spot? Moral choice for sure. AMIS class went into a ton of detail on this scenario. Either choice you make can really ruin your weekend.

14

And, son of a bitch, I can’t dispute the logic of this argument, either.

The difference for me is pulling a concealed weapon to “detain” someone I think has committed a crime and pulling a concealed weapon to stop what I believe is an imminent threat to my life or the life of someone else.

So where it gets sticky is if the threat stops before I have to shoot. Then what? At what magic moment does the guy that half a second before had me in fear for my life become a non-threat? How threatened am I if he moves back towards a vehicle where he may or may not have a weapon?

I watched my neighbor ignore a police officer and walk back into his house when asked to stay put and the officer definitely felt threatened because things got real tense real fast. But I’m not a police officer and, while I might feel justified making a citizen’s arrest, the person I felt threatened by is certainly justified in ignoring me and getting back in his car.

And if it’s this complicated trying to puzzle it out sitting on the couch watching a ball game, how tough is it when you’re scared shitless in the dark on the side of the road with everything happening at once?

15

Yeah, I just don’t see me betting the marbles to catch somebody that might be a criminal. If it’s not me, my property or somebody else being in imminent danger, I will call the cops and let them chase bad guys. Having done it more than a few times I can tell you that I don’t particularly enjoy pulling guns.

16

For me it was when they stopped in their tracks. Had they continued at me I “hope” I would have fired. Thankfully it didn’t come to that. After standing there for a bit, I said “Ok, you guys are getting back in your car, I’m getting in mine and we are leaving.” And they did. Not all bad guys are quite as cooperative.

There is the famous AC556 story about the HK employee who had a couple guys that simply weren’t afraid of being shot at all.

17

I am pretty sure on NC that you can be charged with kidnapping if you try to detain someone at gunpoint. Like others said at least in NC you can only draw in self defense not to detain or apprehend someone.

18

The first time you pulled gun on someone? Do you realize how rare this event should be if you are not a LEO?

I’ve been a victim of 2 violent crimes where I was able to escape serious injury and expensive legal fees by taking the coward’s path (i.e. running) instead of using my weapon. In fact, I’ve carried concealed for 15 years and I’ve never seen a reason to draw my weapon on someone - and I’ve lived/worked in some pretty ghetto places. That is because I train to only use my weapon to defend my life, and I’ve already committed to shooting someone before my hand reaches the 4 o’clock on my waistband. There is really nothing that the target is going to do to stop this action in the 0.8 seconds it takes to clear my holster. If someone sees my gun outside of the training environment, the next thing going through their mind is a bullet.

Having said that, I’m very careful of the situations that I wander into. I would never fathom stopping my car on the side of I95 to help a stranded damsel - especially if my GF or wife was in the car. Sure, I’d stop at the next exit and call the HP, but I’m not risking my family’s livelihood to be a good Samaritan when there is no imminent threat of harm. You say that you saved your GF’s life with your actions, but I’d argue that you put her life in danger in the first place. Imagine if they called your hand with their own guns and won - I bet she would have a night to remember with those guys. Then again, I’ve never driven home from a club at 3 or 4 in the AM.

The point that I’m trying to make is that carrying concealed often amplifies a person’s innate tendencies toward risk. Some of us become more conservative with our risks, while others more accepting of risks. A good question to ask yourself is, “Would I be doing this action if I were not carrying?” If you find yourself taking on more more risk because you have a gun, this might explain why you find yourself holding people at gunpoint a lot more often then the average CCW holder.

19

double

20

I seem to be a rare exception to that rule. I once lived in a really bad neighborhood and ended up having problems with local drug dealers and gang member types because I wouldn’t accept them dealing drugs on my front lawn (literally) and I cooperated with police regularly. As a consequence I have more “gun drawn” instances than most cops I know and I have an occupation where 80% of my customers are LEOs.

But quite honestly, a great many circumstances found me. In that first instance the only way I could have avoided a “gun drawn” situation would have been to not stop at all. And I’m just not the kind of person to leave some chick on the side of the road late at night.

Having learned what I did, I am of course much more wary when I consider helping people, but as a general rule I still help people who look like they might be headed for a lot of trouble if I can. My options once I decided to stop were to draw a gun and protect myself and my gf or not draw a gun. I think I made the right decision.

That a person may be forced to make such decisions more frequently than the norm does not mean they are making the wrong decisions. Sometimes shit just happens more than it should.

Having said that, I’m very careful of the situations that I wander into. I would never fathom stopping my car on the side of I95 to help a stranded damsel - especially if my GF or wife was in the car. Sure, I’d stop at the next exit and call the HP, but I’m not risking my family’s livelihood to be a good Samaritan when there is no imminent threat of harm. You say that you saved your GF’s life with your actions, but I’d argue that you put her life in danger in the first place. Imagine if they called your hand with their own guns and won - I bet she would have a night to remember with those guys. Then again, I’ve never driven home from a club at 3 or 4 in the AM.

Well I had just returned from Iowa and we tend to help everyone. Sometimes being nice has a cost, only good people would have fallen for the trap I did. Yeah, I could have kept driving and made a call from the next exit, but what if I found out she got killed and I could have done something. We all make our decisions.

And while I’m sure many will chide me for not being “tactically protective” enough, I try not to live my life afraid of the world. I go out in it, I do and say what I think is correct. And because I know there are bad people out there I take a gun with me. And if those bad people don’t try and attack me or my loved ones or screw with my property, I would never have to pull a gun. Sadly that isn’t the world we live in.

The point that I’m trying to make is that carrying concealed often amplifies a person’s innate tendencies toward risk. Some of us become more conservative with our risks, while others more accepting of risks. A good question to ask yourself is, “Would I be doing this action if I were not carrying?” If you find yourself taking on more more risk because you have a gun, this might explain why you find yourself holding people at gunpoint a lot more often then the average CCW holder.

I probably would have done the same thing if I didn’t take a gun. I honestly didn’t even consider that I might be in danger by stopping to help. I never even dreamed I was being set up. So it’s a good thing I had a gun, because otherwise I might not be around to tell what happened. I do find being armed makes me avoid a lot of small scale conflicts where I might otherwise tell and asshole he is an asshole.