I have been a big fan of Timney triggers for years and I use them every time I build a precision rifle. So it is with much regret and disgust that I am having to write this. In September of this year I built a Larue Stealth SPR and of course I ordered a Timney trigger for it from my favorite online vendor (PK Firearms). I received the Timney trigger from PKF on 09-24-10 and it looked like this;
So I call Paul at PKF and he has me send it back and he sends me another that looked even worse! It looked so bad that I didn’t either bother to take it out of the package, here it is;
So I call Paul back and after speaking with him I come to find that all of the hammers he has are like this and he pointed out that the triggers are different than the other ones I have ordered. Timney changed some things such as doing away with the hard engraving on the gold anodized housing for a cheaper laser engraving and they are now burning an engraving on the hammers with a laser. Now no one has confirmed too me that they have changed their plating process but I think that will be clear to you buy the end of this write up. I would also like to point out that this is in no way PKF’s fault and Paul went above and beyond. Thanks Paul!
So I contact Timney and explain my problem and they said send it back and we will make it right. So I send them the 2nd trigger back and they ship me another one and it looked a little better but it didn’t look anything like the hammers on the triggers I have bought previously. So I contact their General Manager and start dealing directly with him. I asked him why the plating looks so bad he said "sometimes they look great and sometimes they don’t.” I explain the problem and the fact that I am out two return shipping fees and he reluctantly sends me a return shipping label and a new trigger group. I say reluctantly because he told me that his problem was that the issue I have is purely cosmetic and the function is not affected. I asked him if the function is not affected then why do you nickel plate them? He responded by asking me what my address was. So I decide to make a comparison photo for their GM to look at and here is a picture of it;
I think the differences between them are quite clear. The most disturbing part of this revelation is they evidently use them no matter what they look like and they don’t seem to care either.
So I wait another week for it to arrive and it is no different, in fact I kept the one I had and sent the new one back since it was the worst of the two. I don’t have a picture of this one because my wife had the camera but you can probably imagine by now. So I contact their GM again and told him they aren’t getting any better and he says he will have hammer made especially for me but I will have to exchange the hammer out of the unit I already have. He then tells me this is the last time he will deal with this! I guess this is somehow my fault at this point.
Now I am waiting to see my 5th hammer which arrived yesterday and this is the last straw! Seven wasted weeks trying to resolve this and look at this sorry excuse for a nickel plated hammer they sent me!
I sent him an email asking for my money back. I will update this thread when I get a response. Just in case you have not seen what a Timney trigger is supposed to look like here are my two other ones I have;
I hope by writing this article I can save some of you from having to go through this BS. I have had a couple folks tell me I am being to picky but I don’t expect to have to pay the same price for a product that has been downgraded.
Timney used to be the only game in town if you wanted a drop in trigger unit and there quality was second to none. Now that there are multiple manufactures making drop in modules I am guessing Timney lost some market share and some bean counter decided to cut corners to make up some lost revenue but they are dead wrong! Diminishing quality will cost them even more lost revenue and repeat customers like myself.
Sorry to hear about that train wreck above…holy smokes that last hammer looks like garbage. I wonder if this is a chronic problem across their entire product line up since they make quite a few diff. drop in units for various other guns.
If you want to be treated like a million bucks than I might suggest switching to Geissele units in the future as they are honestly textbook for how you should treat your customers. I hear they make a pretty good trigger as well;)
I didn’t install any of them. I assumed they had a couple of bad hammers get through QC so I just sent it back but once I realized they were getting worse it became a matter of principle. All I wanted was the quality of plating that I have received in the past, nothing more and nothing less…
honestly, why does it matter how the sides of the hammer look as long as the engagement surfaces are good and the trigger works as advertised? the sides of my KAC hammer looks just like your timney but it sure works well. geissele hammers have seams, marks etc on non-critical areas as well.
sometimes, manufacturers have to look at ways of reducing manufacturing costs in order to offer their products at the same price point, instead of increasing the price to reflect current costs of manufacturing. if it doesn’t affect performance, and it’s an internal part so cosmetics aren’t an issue, that would be an acceptable place to reduce costs.
if a product was introduced 4 years ago, it may be more expensive to manufacture now that when it was first introduced. look at all the costs associated with making something - materials, labour etc. so, if they keep the price the same, they’re essentially making less as time goes on.
i’m not saying that’s what timney did - just pointing out a potential reason for what you’re seeing.
I can agree with this rational but I would rather see a slight price increase rather than a quality decrease. If I didn’t already have two of there triggers I would have probably not had any issues but I know what there hammers are supposed to look like and that is what bothers me so much.
I agree with both statements, here… I also understand the concern the op has. I, for one, am not concerned with overall cosmetics and appearance as long as function is nor affected. It does suck when manufacturers have to make cuts in certain areas to keep the price point the same but, as mm stated, as long as reliability isn’t affected negatively… no biggie.
I would have to respectfully disagree with a cpl. things…the last hammer sent to the OP indeed looked like KAC’s to some degree however the actual engagement areas on the timney above are really pretty rough to my eye at least and not the case with my KAC units.
Also I believe that the actual finish on the current modeled G triggers is flawless…not seeing any seams, marks or otherwise noticeable tool marks. I really have seen very few to perhaps no small part finished as nicely as the stuff from GA.
no prob disagreeing - but again, the question would be ‘how does it function?’ regardless of engagement surfaces?
here’s a pic of one of my geissele hammers - illlustrating an inconsequential ‘seam-like mark’ from the manufacturing process:
here’s a pic of the KAC:
“I can agree with this rational but I would rather see a slight price increase rather than a quality decrease.”
i don’t see if as a drop in quality because it’s a cosmetic attribute that is hidden under normal use. given the price increase in so much stuff around us nowadays, i’d rather pay the same price and get the same function, if it means a slight sacrifice in an area that doesn’t affect functioning nor external cosmetics.
it’s just like the inside rear of a bolt carrier - i have an LMT one that looks so rough i’m wondering what tool they used to bore it out. looks terrible, but since it doesn’t affect function, i didn’t care.
anyways, we can agree to disagree on what matters to us, but i think it was harsh to imply that timney’s overall quality is slipping or unacceptable because of a hidden cosmetic attribute.
With externally exposed products I see great cosmetics a s another check in the box before being sent out, but for internal function products, cosmetics are low on my list as long as it will function as advertised. Especially with a hammer that will eventually be beat to shit.
But, I do see where you are coming from. If a company has been charging the same amount for a good fit and finish, and then suddenly send a product out looking like crap, then where else are they not doing their job.
Colt 6920s and the like have some really hideous tool marks left on the upper and lower receivers externally. It doesn’t effect function at all, but the ‘fit and finish’ critics hate it.
The attention to detail and craftsmanship of there trigger units is what drew me to them and kept me coming back but take that away and it shakes my confidence in the quality. It’s just not what I thought I was paying for…:sad:
One problem is that the OP wants something that is no longer available. Something is getting lost between the GM and the OP, because logic says this whole thing is bordering on ridiculous. OP wants another hammer, and gets another hammer. Then wants another, and gets it. We could do this for a long time. Until Timney changes the process again, you are going to keep getting the same product. It is insane to expect otherwise.
Try it. You may like it. If not, send it back and move on. Getting angry does not do anyone any good.
I’m not angry at all just disappointed. This is just a way to let unsuspecting consumers know there is a change in what they may be expecting when they order a Timney trigger and it is not what there used too. As for the GM, he gave no indication that there was a change in manufacturing but rather a problem with the plating. His exact statement was “sometimes they look great and sometimes they don’t”…
I think for another $20, I’d buy the Geissele. The Timney may still work as well as ever, but based on the reluctance of their GM to satisfy the OP, I would not buy the Timney product.
While I agree with the sentiment that some have voiced about the trigger still functioning, I do not simply relegate it to the ole’ function over form category…or write it off as a purely cosmetic issue.
We are not talking about a colt factory trigger here or similar G.I. spec trigger that prob. would not cost more than $30-$40 but rather what is supposed to be a top dollar aftermarket precision drop in trigger unit. This unit will still go bang like a gritty, unpredictable colt stock trigger I am sure, however the question should really be is it giving the user the $225’s worth of performance and quality…My opinion is that unit above clearly does not merit that coin.
I see both sides of this. One one hand, function is definitely what really matters. On the other, it does suck to get used to a product, then find out they’ve made changes that aren’t an improvement to it. Generally I’m the type who would rather pay an extra few bucks to continue buying what I’ve come to expect.
The part that stands out to me is the comment from the GM. If he would have said “To keep from having to pass a cost increase on to our customers we’ve changed the manufacturing process, but it in no way effects the functional quality”, then I would have no problems with it. But, “sometimes they look great, sometimes they don’t”, sounds as if their goal is still to produce them with the same appearance, but are lacking the quality control now to do so. That’s a red flag for me, because it makes me wonder if other areas of quality control could become an issue as well, specifically in the areas that effect function and dependability.
This is extremely common in industry. Materials and process change all the time based on many factors like availability of materials, new manufacturing techniques, and simple economics.
Nearly all cars today do not have chrome on their shiny bits. Instead, it is aluminized Mylar embedded in resin.
Your trigger is another case of “they don’t make 'em like that anymore.”
Fit, finish and looks is really the realm of TOS.
Take a look at Kyle Lamb’s book “Green Eyes and Black Rifles.” He has a lot to say about function over form. He also talks a good bit about non-standard FCG’s.
If you are not training with your rifle then what is the point?
I also had a small problem with the GM a few months ago. I had sent my trigger for an exchange since it was not resetting, but after two months of waiting and talking with CS rep a couple times I hadn’t received anything. I talked to the GM and he said they had never received the trigger unit from while on the previous calls the CS rep had told not to worry and that they had received my trigger and my new unit should be shipping soon. Well long story short he didn’t believe i had sent in my trigger, but luckily I still had receipt and after a few calls and a fax of the shipping info they sent out the replacement.
