With all the recent events of mass shootings occurring in public places one always wonders what would have happened if a legally armed civilian would have intervened immediately and engaged the shooter.
Now most CCW’s have never had any formal tactical training and would have very limited on person resources equipment wise but could they make a difference if they took action to stop a active shooter?
Now this thread is not meant for the internet Rambo’s who talk a good story but would shit their pants and run the other way if confronted with a actual situation but a down to earth personal assessment of each posters abilities to attempt a intervention during a active shooter event.
Please limit your response to the actual equipment that you carry on a daily basis “On Your Person” and not what you wish you had should a actual event occur. Also how would you identify and challenge other possible CCW friendlies and off duty law enforcement from the actual shooter?
I carry a 1911 in condition 1 and 2 extra mags. If placed in that situation, I would like to think I could stop the shooter if I can do so without getting myself or others killed. I hope if that ever happens I will have the strength to make a difference. I try to prepare myself mentally for it every day.
But, the truth is, NOBODY can know what they will do when faced with that situation. I know for a fact that what I MIGHT do could change depending on who I’m with. If I’m with my wife, her safety is my priority. Everyone else is on their own. If I’m alone, my safety is my top priority. If I can stop the shooter without getting killed, it is a bonus.
4x g17 mags
med/trauma/blowout kit for two, including a cpr mask
glow sticks, red sharpie
a water bottle, some quick bars (i cycle them every two weeks)
a pack plate from ar500.com, its heavy, it takes rifle ammo like its nothing
my dept’s logo on a baseball cap with my badge number on it and a large police patch
spare batteries, extra flashlight
two motorola two way radios
When I worked plainclothes I picked up carrying an extra magazine on belt and never lost the habit.
Only a few things I need to get to carry daily, maybe one of those bright orange police arm bands, but I am put off by the idea of having something bright orange on me during an active shooter.
I just came back from the auto parts and grocery stores. I’m still wearing a S&W 1911PD in a Milt Sparks EX and one spare mag. I have a badge in my wallet and one on my belt next to the holster.
Any response I make to an active shooter is going to be predicated on time and distance, along with the tactical concerns of the immediate area. If I’m close and hear shots fired (while alone), I’ll either tuck my shirt so the belt badge is visible or clip it to the collar of my shirt, and use all available cover as I approach the scene. I may have my my hand on the gun or I may have it in hand held close to my side. I’ll be directing non-combatants to move away from gunfire or take cover. If I’m swimming upstream in a mass of fleeing humanity, I may be screaming “Sheriff’s Office!” with the gun up and in a two handed hold with the elbows out to form a wedge, safety on and finger outside the trigger guard. If it’s a shooter targeting random victims and firing at will, I’ll maneuver to a point where I can get the best clear shot available and send rounds. Even if all I can do is restrict his maneuverability, it’s better than nothing.
If I’m with family, I’ll see to their security as quickly as possible before acting on the scenario. Their safety will be 1st priority.
If I’m arriving on the scene and don’t have enough information on the situation, I’ll approach with caution using all available cover. If the situation is well under way, I’ll be listening for sirens and watching for an officer I can link up with to form a response team. Officers with armor will take point of course.
As my agency leadership says, they expect us to respond whether on duty or off. If it’s an active shooter and you’re on scene, it’s a bad day to be a LEO, but we have a job to do.
There isn’t much that I could imagine that would equip someone to be able to respond to a situation such as this that they carry daily. Personally, I carry a Glock 19 as my daily CCW. Without a doubt, that would be better than nothing, but the current trend among incidents like this is someone with a long gun and body armor and bookoos of ammo. There is no way to level the playing field.
Considering a CCW holder were close enough to hear the shooting, if he were to enter a school, nobody could know that he was a friendly and not an accomplice. Plus, it would have to be someone with a mindset that they would run towards danger, rather than away from it, which I doubt many would do.
Tactically, I would imagine that getting a shot off before you were seen by the shooter (nearly impossible) or getting the shooter to react to you would take heat off the unarmed in the immediate vicinity would be the best course of action (hopefully either neutralizing the threat, or forcing him to exit the building). That means you would have to be willing to be a bullet magnet, forcing the shooter to use ammo on you than others. From a CCW perspective, I wouldn’t be able to do much with one mag in my Glock 19, which would mean carrying extra mags, which most of us who carry hopefully do anyway. 16 rounds would go quick if you were suppressing a shooter.
If you were able to stop the shooter, you must realize that officers coming into the school are going to shoot first and ask questions later, so you would need to make it obvious that you were not a threat and how to do that would certainly depend on the situation. Helping administer first aid to any casualties would be a next course of action.
An important note in all of this is that anyone who would consider helping in such a situation would have to realize that the odds of survival are not in your favor (that is if it was still an active shooter situation by the time you got in the building). Most likely, by the time you got in the building, the incident might be over. It is my understanding that most of these incidents happen extremely fast and are over in just a minute or two.
We all play this scenario in our heads and say what if…
If you were to look at this from an objective perspective, this is almost a tactically perfect situation.
A small number of adults around to hinder movement.
Bulk of all persons in classrooms.
Surprise = huge advantage = he wins
The main flaw with trying to play this one out in your head, is the fact that we are dealing, not with adults, but with children. While the parents are away at work. What has not been said, is were there any police on campus ? Most schools have at least one man in blue around.
Then you can say “what about arming the teachers ?” I would say no to this as well. Putting a gun in the hands of the faculty is too much risk involved over a long period of time. How many of the teachers would just throw their weapon in the desk drawer and lock it up ? You could make a hundred reasons why, but the excuse at the front of y mind is “its too heavy and I don’t like guns anyway” This is going to put not only the teacher back at square one, but the advantage back to the shooter.
Am amazed after all these years of shootings going on why no one one is “arming” the faculty with tasers or pepper spray ??? like LE10
If a student broke into the desk drawer and helped themselves to either of those, no one would be killed, we all know how kids are. This would allow some means to which a dirtbag could be taken down and still not present a bad situation, or one of the kids finding a gun laying around, or having it stripped from them, or not having it ready to be deployed.
I feel like such a browncoat for talking like this. What else are we to do, besides disarm the whole population ?? Why are we all so perplexed with taking the guns away, when there are alternatives to using deadly force.
As long as the faculty get certified on spray and tasers, I would not have a problem with them carrying either. It’s something they would remember, lest one of the teachers decide to unjustly use it on a kid or co-worker.
During the night the gunman opened fire in the Colorado theater, I was also in a movie theater at the same time watching the same movie, only in another state. Once I heard about the shooting, (aside from feeling sadness for the victims) I felt good knowing that I was wearing my Walther PPQ on my strong side with a Streamlight TLR-1s attached, along with a spare mag on my weak side and a surefire flashlight and knife in my pocket.
During the Trolley Square shooting in Salt Lake City, I was across the street at an office building, and also felt good knowing I was carrying my pistol, light, and spare mag.
It’s hard to really say what you would do in a terrible situation, but I like to think that I would have tried to quickly engage the shooter had I been in the Colorado theater or other active shooter scenarios. I always carry the necessary tools, and I have had years of training classes in everything from combat pistol to force on force and live fire house clearing etc.
I am not an LEO, and would like to avoid conflict whenever possible, but I feel confident that I could hopefully engage a threat if needed.
I have read an article that shows that when confronted by anyone, most active shooters either surrender or shoot themselves. any disruption to their plan tends to stop them. It was posted by a Sgt. In the Topeka Police department. After securing my family, as a ccw holder, I would attempt to intervene so as to stop his plan. There is no way I would standby with a weapon while someone evil is wreaking havoc, especially innocents. Even if he has armor and a rifle, hits to the torso will slow him down and throw off his game.
I am an LEO and I carry my GLOCK 21 everywhere I go. My family knows to break away from me and get to the nearest PD if anything happens. You have to remember though, the bad guy has the element of surprise and you are in plain clothes and very likely to get shot yourself by responding LEO’s. But, yes, I would do everything I could to stop such a scenario from playing out.
Not attempting to hijack this thread but it appears there are a number of LEOs that are reading. I’d like to know what your professional opinion as a LEO is regarding civilian CCW holders that happen to be onsite (not running towards but already on location) responding with their weapon. To me it seems like that is one of the points of having a CCW in the first place but would like to hear an LEO’s perspective. Do you think it would help or hurt the situation? Do you think civilian CCWs onsite should retreat to safety if possible or attempt to intervene and delay or neutralize an active shooter (assuming they are trained enough to do so)?
I’m a civilian CCW holder and would feel compelled to try and save lives, even if putting my own at risk, but only if the threat was immediate (as in in front of me or in visual range). I’m not so sure I would necessarily go hunting down the threat in a larger environment. I wouldn’t completely discount it but don’t know if that would be the course of action I would take.
im not LEO but the only immediate issue i would see with a CCW holder responding to an active shooter situation with lethal force is that it could very well make you a target, not necessarily by the perp but by LE or other CCW holders possibly confused by the situation.
Is a hard position since there is plenty of POV’s and every situation is not the same.
Like some others have covered, If I were to be with my family, I would make their safety a first priority. But then again, Wifey is in the same field as me (LEO) and if something were to happen, I think she would be my backup.
Aside from that, If you ever happen to be in such situation, I would advise calling 911 and giving a description of yourself and making clear you are a CCW holder who’s in trying to do the best you can (that’s what most of us do when off duty and the SHTF) although they might tell you to back off and let the pro’s handle for safety reasons. I am not trying to imply that you are not prepared, I actually believe that a CCW holder might be even more prepared than LEO, I would guess is just procedure and liability issues.
It’s a tough call and really depends on the circumstances at that moment in time. I’d hate to shoot a responding citizen (or off duty LEO) if I were responding in uniform. At the same time, I’d really appreciate someone who did what they had the capacity to do in preventing further tragedy.
My opinion is to let your instincts guide you, but keep your head on a swivel and be ready to prone out at the first sign of responders at your 6 if you intervene.
