The 4th Amendment is gone in CA.

That was a really good read, thanks. I doubt we’ll agree on everything but I’ve highlighted a few things I thought were relevent. If a person were being arrested INSIDE their house I would NOT see a problem with a cursory sweep for the safety of the officers. When a person is arrested OUTSIDE their house I have a huge problem with it, get a warrant. These quotes are from the link you posted.

The fourth type of protective search—the “protective sweep”—is different because it is a search for people.4 Specifically, it is a search for people who pose a threat to officers who are lawfully inside a residence or other place.5
Most sweeps are conducted just after officers have arrested a suspect inside his house.

Although the focus of this article is on sweeps that occur in conjunction with in-home arrests, they may sometimes be conducted when the arrest takes place outside the dwelling. In addition, sweeps are not limited to arrest situations.7 This subject will be covered later.

For example, in U.S. v. Curtis15 officers lawfully arrested Curtis and Melvin in the living room of their two-bedroom apartment. While two officers guarded the arrestees, two other officers “swept” a living room closet, the adjoining kitchen, and two bedrooms located “down the hall.” In the course of the sweep, they found drugs in the bedrooms. The court ruled the officers “could legitimately look in other spaces in the living room, in the open kitchen, and in the living room closet near the couch on which Melvin was sitting just prior to his arrest.” But the sweep of the bedrooms was unlawful because “[t]here was no justification for a sweep of such remote areas.”

Even if officers may lawfully sweep a certain room, they may inspect only those places and things in which a person might be hiding. For example, in U.S. v. Ford,16 an FBI agent arrested Ford in the hallway of his home as Ford was stepping from a bedroom. While other officers guarded Ford, the agent walked into the bedroom and saw a gun clip in plain view. He then lifted a mattress and found drugs and ammunition. After that, he lifted a window shade and found a handgun on the sill.
The court ruled the agent’s entry into the bedroom was lawful because “the arrest took place in the hallway, and the bedroom from which Ford emerged was immediately adjoining the hallway.” Thus, the gun clip was seized lawfully. But the drugs, ammunition, and handgun were ordered suppressed because, said the court, it was apparent that no one was hiding under the mattress or behind the window shade.

Still, because reasonable suspicion cannot exist without some factual basis, sweeps may not be conducted as a matter of routine or departmental policy. Thus, in ruling the sweep of the defendant’s home was unlawful, the court in U.S. v. Brown said, “[T]he protective sweep was not based upon any articulable suspicion, but rather was undertaken as a matter of standard ATF policy.”21
Nor may sweeps be conducted on grounds that officers had no information that a threat did not exist and, therefore, the existence of a threat could not be ruled out. In the words of the U.S. Court of Appeal, “‘No information’ cannot be an articulable basis for a sweep that requires information to justify it in the first place.”22 Thus, in U.S. v. Ford23 the court ruled a sweep was unjustified because the only reason given by the FBI agent for conducting it was, “I did not know if there was anybody back there. I wanted to make sure there was no one there to harm us.”
Likewise, a sweep is not permitted merely because there existed an abstract or theoretical possibility of a threat.24 Officers may, however, interpret the facts in light of their training and experience. As the Court of Appeal observed, “[T]he officer’s training and experience can be critical in translating observations into a reasonable conclusion.”25

Arrest outside, sweep inside
The courts have sometimes permitted sweeps when the suspect was arrested just outside the house, usually near a door that was open or ajar.46 I believe this was what happened in this case. 46 The logic behind these rulings is that when officers reasonably believe that a person inside a house poses a threat to them, that threat is not eliminated merely because there happens to be a door between them.47 In the words of the Court of Appeal:
The basic question is whether the limited inspection of the premises was reasonable in each case, that is, was it in fact a protective sweep based upon articulable and reasonable facts supporting a belief in possible danger to officers or others, or was it an otherwise impermissible warrantless search for evidence? This, rather than on which side of a door an arrest is effected, is the issue in these limited-inspection cases.48
Although an arrest outside may sometimes justify a protective sweep inside, the courts are not in agreement as to whether the greater intrusion of a warrantless entry requires probable cause or whether reasonable suspicion is sufficient.49 It is, however, clear that even where the reasonable suspicion standard has been applied, the courts tend to evaluate the circumstances more critically. As the court observed in Sharrar v. Felsing, “Predictably, where the courts have differed in permitting protective sweeps incident to arrests outside the home is on the quantity and quality of the articulable facts necessary to justify the sweep, rather than on the underlying standard.”50

PLAIN VIEW SEIZURES: If officers see evidence in plain view, they may seize it if they have probable cause that it is, in fact, evidence of a crime.56 As the court noted in U.S. v. Curtis, “[O]fficers engaged in a legitimate protective sweep need not close their eyes to what they see in plain view.”57

Have a good evening.

Remember, an officers actions must always be judged through his or her eyes, at the time of the event (per SCOTUS), thus bear in mind the following with this case,

The Police had a warrant to arrest LEMUS.

They were familiar with his criminal history and his involvement in drive-by shootings.

When they pulled in front of the house and called out to him, he moved toward the door of the apartment.

The door was open when they arrested him.

They did not know who or what was on the other side of that open door.

Think like the officers at that moment, what was LEMUS moving toward? An accomplice? A weapon? Per the above mentioned rulings, Terry, Long, Chimel, or Buie, they were entitled to a protective sweep of the other side of that open door, during that protective sweep they found a gun.

Read this, it will give a bit more insight,

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0850403p.pdf

As you said, we may not always agree but we can be civil in our argument.

Absolutely. :slight_smile: If we all got along all the time and agreed on everything life would be pretty boring. Besides, through our discussion I’ve learned some new things pertaining to the 4th Amendment that I was unaware of and I can use that knowledge in future debates.

I’ll admit to doing a bit of Monday morning QB’ing with apparently not all of the facts that could be found. My intention wasn’t to second guess the actions of the LEOs but to affirm the Constitutional rights that should be looked out for. If people lose their vigilence and don’t exercise their rights then they will be eroded and eventually lost.

After reading the last link the officer’s actions make a lot more sense. I hadn’t realized the felon part and a few other things. Thanks for the info.

EDIT: I was also going off of the article I quoted in which a Judge was stating “facts” and I hadn’t done any additional research.

Whenever I read a news article anymore my first question to myself is this, “what is their agenda?”. Then I read the article and follow it with a bit of research. I have found that things are seldom as they are made out to be. The more dramatic the title and/or article the more sceptical I become. Did you notice that the original article left out the whole criminal history and optaining of the search warrant? To have done so would have destroyed Kozinski’s little tirade.

It is not an illegal search and the poster you quoted explained it. Protective sweep is a search warrant exemption as is plain view. The court agrees. Poor criminals I feel so sorry for them.:rolleyes: This is a win for law enforcement and I am happy about it.
Pat

Really? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yeah, a win for “law enforcement” - aka the government - and a huge, massive stab wound to the Constitution - aka the people.

Exactly how far does a “protective sweep” go when the subject isn’t even in the house? What if he starts running toward his neighbor’s open door, and you know his neightbor is his buddy? Can you go rummaging through the neighbor’s house, too … can’t be too careful, there might be an accomplice in there, or - gasp - a GUN that the guy now can’t get to because he’s been cuffed and stuffed already.

How about a car, owned by somebody else, that he runs toward, that’s unlocked. Can you go searching through that, too, just because he made a move toward it? I mean, you never know. There might be a trunk monkey in there, ready to spring on you.

The Fourth Amendment died a long time ago. This decision is just an additional nail in the already well-sealed coffin.

Me too, under the penalty of death!!! The higher their “office”, the longer their incarceration should be including a death penalty for any elected or appointed official to willingly and knowingly dismantle the very heart of our Republic. These people must be held accountable!!!

Seems like a stretch to arrest someone outside their home, and then search inside their home after the arrest. Unless you have good reason to believe there is another threat (read that as not MAYBE or there might be) then you have no business going in there.

But thats the way this works. Gov “stretches” their authority to work around the Constitution while making exercising your rights a legal minefield ready to trip people up, and throw them in jail. Gee a government court giving the government ever increasing authority…whoda thunk it?

Yeah but it’s ok because it’s catching bad guys…:rolleyes:

It is so early in the morning but you just read my mind!!! Great response. While I respect human life, the Constitution is the entity that gives all of us the freedoms we enjoy.(however quickly they may be dwindling). Without the Constitution, we are all just slaves (LEO"s included). I perfectly understand “looking thru an LEO’s eyes” as you can say I have had some L.E experience myself. After Operation Just Cause when Noriega was ousted from power, my unit, Lima co, 3rd Battalion 6th Marines was tasked with being “LEO’s” with local Panamanian Defense Forces who switched sides. We patrolled some of the worst 3rd worlds ghetto’s. That was just one experience I’ve had with a situation like that. Not to mention that my father is a veteran NYPD officer who served during the most violent period of that agencies existance. My Dad was in the 28 Pct which was known as the most dangerous house in the city. It is in Harlem. This was when Malcom X was still alive. These Black Panthers were at war with the Police. They even on a few occasions, threw hand grenades under Police vehicles. I could go on and on with the crap these poor LEO’s had to deal with. You guys would be amazed at the level of danger and violence these brave LEO’s dealt with and endured daily.

My point being, is that being an LEO, under no circumstances, makes it ok to water down or violate the Constitution. Live with it. You volunteered for it. Remember what the nazi’s were told during the Nuremburg trials that “Just following orders” is no excuse. Todays LEO’s face the same dilemna. Uphold the oath they swore to or blindly follow some liberal communist politicians orders. Those same liberal communist politicians who look to do away with that inconvenience to them also known as “The Constitution”. Well, how do they get rid of it?? Not all at once. They chip away at it. A little here, a little there and before you know it, in 3 or 4 decades its just a mere shell of what it used to be. Well, this paticular case represents another “chip”.

I am almost amazed that U.S Citizens would applaud their own rights being taken away from them. I say almost because that is the level this nation has been “dumbed down” to, so there really isn’t anything that surprises me anymore. Just sad to see people cheering for their and their families own enslavement.

All I have to say is the brave men who served in the 28 Pct from 1965-1980 never said a peep about the horrendously tough job they went to everyday. Like hard men, they just went in and got the job done, day in and day out. They never looked for some “cheat sheet” with official sounding procedures like “protective sweep”. I can guarantee they would have looked at each other with a confused “WTF” face and asked each other “Isn’t that illegal?”. LEO’s are here to protect and serve the public, not the politicians. They are here to serve with dignity, not look to undermine the very Republic the swore to protect. I think every incoming LEO should have to know the Constitution and be tested on it to get on the job. How can one swear to protect something they know nothing of?? Then, uphold your oath and execute your duties with the utmost of honor and integrity.

So, if I have a CCW or I have guns registered to me (in those states) and the police come to arrest me at my home, they can search my house because they already know I have a gun and my wife may want to do a Bonnie and Clyde show? I forgot what the legal standard is called, but it is even lower than probably cause when it comes to threshold for a search.
EDIT: Before you laugh or say BS, in the linked document above starting on page 5 they have:
“Relevant circumstances
In most cases, reasonable suspicion to conduct a sweep is based on circumstantial evidence. The following are examples.”
Page 7: “RESIDENCE A SITE FOR GUNS OR VIOLENCE: The house was occupied or frequented by people who have been armed or violent.”

Not armed and dangerous, armed OR violent.

Throw in ‘sniper rifles’ and is any house in 1000 yards fair game?

How does any arrest warrant not become a search warrant lite?

I understand how the police view this as a victory, but you have to understand that those of us who haven’t broken the law view something like this. A warrant is a long way from a conviction and as we have seen here time and again there are errors in serving warrants.

EDIT: Oh, and no :rolleyes: on this post, so I mean this one.

Excellent point.

On a side note…

The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.

Attributed to Thomas Jefferson.

And yeah, I know, TJ never walked a beat or had to collar an armed methhead.

I would seem that the majority of Americans, even as polled by liberal-leaning CNN, do believe that they government is too powerful and is a direct threat to their rights and freedoms:

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/02/26/cnn-poll-majority-says-government-a-threat-to-citizens-rights/?fbid=6KuyjFzpjua

It does concern me that it’s that close of a margin.

It is pretty clear that quite a few people are either too lazy to read the information and the history behind this event, or too ignorant of the workings of the court processes and their own Government to understand what happened. There is nothing new here, no new erosion of the Constitution.

In summary,

A gang-banger felon had a warrant issued for his arrest.

He disobeyed orders from LE not to move during the effect of that arrest and moved to the doorway of his apartment and was arrested in that open doorway.

A protective sweep of the interior of that apartment was conducted.

A pistol was identified.

A warrant was obtained.

Said pistol was subsequently seized pursuant to the execution of a lawfully obtained search warrant.

Gang-banger felon is charged federally as a felon in possession of a firearm.

Gang-banger felon’s defense attorney files a standard appeal of conviction based on “unlawfully obtained evidence”.

9th Circuit Court of Appeals denies appeal. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data2/circs/9th/0850403p.pdf (read this, all the Contitutional issues are covered inside)

Lawyer appeals fo an en banc ruling from the 9th CCA.

En banc Judges look at the above ruling and say, “no, nothing wrong here”.

One judge, Judge Kazinsky, who has been in a lot of hot water lately and is very close to having a major ruling over-turned by an en banc ruling (spanked by his peers) files a dissenting opinion in a bid for attention and relevance.

Come on people, look at the information behind the news, don’t get sucked in by the headlines, you’re all smarter than that.

This is an excellent and well written post.

None of us were there so it’s difficult to say what exactly happened. But I’ve seen several situations where flimsy excuses are made by agressive officers to violate the 4th Amendment.

Quite frankly, if you arrest a person outside his home, don’t smell a meth lab through his front door or have someone inside threatening to harm officers from inside, the correct answer is to shut the door before transporting the arrestee. It doesn’t matter whether they’re a dirtbag or not, they have the same Constitutional rights as every other citizen.

The Constitution is not a document that should have it’s limits tested by officers. If what you want to do would only be considered legal after numerous court challenges and appeals, you’re pushing the boundaries. Who cares if its technically legal, you should instead be looking to perform actions that are bomb proof. Instead of exploiting loopholes in the person’s rights, how about working smarter and becoming a more proficient and professional officer?

Ask yourself this: If the roles were reversed and you were in cuffs on your front lawn, would you want police searching your home before taking you away? Walk a mile in another man’s shoes before you piss on his rights. :frowning:

So they conducted the search, found the gun, and then got the warrant?

I don’t know - I only have a law degree, a state supreme court clerkship, and several years of trial practice, so maybe I’m just an ignoramus like you say - but it sounds like they may have done a few things in the wrong order here.

Like I said before, the majority may have pointed to lots of prior cases to support their ruling - in which case, those courts got it wrong, too.

I read the opinion, and it seems like the court’s ruling was based on the disputed assertion that he had already entered the house at the time the arrest occurred, which they then used to justify the protective sweep. I am still incredibly baffled as to the justification to go searching into tiny crevices (like between mattresses) for weapons when the subject is already cuffed and out of action. A quick look around the rooms and into, say, a closet would seem fine to make sure nobody is hiding there.

There does seem to be a prevalent attitude that “we can do it because the court said it’s OK, so that’s what we’ll do.” LEOs are agents of a separate branch of government, which has its own independent duty to assess and behave in accordance with the Constitution. What a court says you can get away with is not and should not be the final word.

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