Teach me about the FAL

FAL Gurus-

I am looking for in-depth knowledge about the FAL.
I did a search but the three-letter search was less than helpful and the existing FAL Info thread doesn’t really contain the knowledge I am looking for.
If there are existing threads or outside resources/forums I would be happy if a link is provided.

I am considering purchasing a FAL for personal use and after chiming in on another thread I became very aware of how little I really know about the platform.
Templar brought up concerns about the shortened gas system, and while I am not at all doubtful about the advised aversion, I would like to really understand the “why” about it. I want to know the little intracasies and details of the platform. I don’t intend on this becoming the be all and end all information source, but it would be nice to have a source for that info.

Thanks.

ETA- I just registered over at the FAL Files Forums, but if there are other places/people that are outside that community and it’s stickies, please let me know.

The FAl files is a good place to start. What do you want to know exactly? Try a search using FN FAL, Fabrique National FAL Rifle. I have a few, extremely reliable, 3moa accuracy is the norm. many different makers, profiles. Belgians are most expensive, and very well made. brazilian and Argentines are very nice as well. The israelis are also well amde, amd have wood furniture. And american made DSA’s and Springfield Armory SAR 48’s, Light barrels are usually Brazilian made,HB israeli’s are American made with Israeli part kits. Gas piaton system is clean and reliable, adjustable. The “Short gas system” is this on the shorter barrels?

Unfortunately, this

FAL Variant Info Thread

is all we’ve really got here. I had a DSA SA58 carbine, and can say that it was a very high quality rifle. I sold it and moved all of my magazines simply because I am not into the .308 game that much. I did go the whole “tac it out” thing and had some limited success. There are a couple of high quality aftermarket accessories, but not many. Templar does indeed know a lot about them - no surprise there.

Concerning the Mini SA58 FAL OSW, I know that this platform (11" or 13" barrel) does indeed exhibit some functioning issues - not to mention horrendous blast.

Larry’s a big fan of the FAL, as am I. It balances reliablity, accuracy, and ergonomics in a damn good package.

http://vickerstactical.com/tactical-tips/battle-rifles/

I personally think that the best barrel length for a FAL is the 17.75" barrel that was found on the original FN Para 50:63.

I’m not a fan of the short gas system that DSA came up with for their “Tactical” carbines for a couple of reasons.

#1…I’m not an engineer, but my personal knee jerk reaction is that they’re increasing the gas pressure and wear and tear on the whole system putting the gas system closer to the receiver. I might very well be off base here.

#2…Proprietary parts. That’s probably my biggest beef with it. DSA makes damn good stuff, but there are literally tons of parts for the standard length gas system.

FN had a lot of years to work out the best length for a FAL carbine, and they settled on the 17.75" (18") with the standard gas system.

DSA makes the best over the counter FAL rifles and carbines available currently in the US, period. If you want the real deal, a FN FAL 50:63 will set you back about $3.5K or more…while you can get the same basic rifle from DSA for about $2K.

The DSA rifles use Badger barrels that aren’t hard chrome lined. FN would make whatever the end user wanted when they were producing FAL’s, some countries did not use chrome lined barrels and they worked fine.

While having a chromed bore is a good thing for wear and ease of cleaning, they use a quality barrel that will last a long time with semi auto fire.

The DSA 16.5" barrel carbines work, but I really like the 18" more. You have an adjustable gas system on the FAL, and with the 18" barrel, you can usually set it to bleed more gas and thereby lower the perceived recoil and cut down a bit on the wear and tear.

There’s a ton of info on the FAL, and I’d give a lot of weight to what Vickers is saying.

I know I’m kind of rambling…beyond the short vs. the standard gas system, throw some more questions out.

Buck is also a RKI on the FAL system, especially the pre 1989 imported stuff.

Tagging for interest. This is a system that I have thought of purchasing.

For me, the short gas system on a FAL just doesn’t make much sense unless you are using a short barrel (which also doesn’t make sense to me given the platform). With the 16" barrels the system may shed a tiny amound of weight but it also shortens the sight radius. The trade off just doesn’t seem worth it. It doesn’t appear to do anything to improve an already proven design.

The rifle I own is not a factory built DSA but a home build on a DSA receiver. The quality of the parts I purchased from them is excellent and I always received good service from them. If I were in the market for a new FAL, DSA would get my business. Another place to look is Arizona Response Systems, although I think he is pretty booked up these days. He offers a workbook and video on the FAL that is worth checking out even if you’re not planning on a home build. The FAL files forum is a great site to learn about the FAL. Sadly, it is not nearly as active as it was a few years ago but it is one of the best sources of info on the FAL.

Arizona Response Systems
http://www.arizonaresponsesystems.com/

I picked up parts and tools from Gunthings when I assembled my rifle. Good people to deal with. They also offer some books and manuals on the FAL.

http://www.gunthings.com/

Guys, thanks for taking time to drop in on this.

I read Larry’s comments years ago and stuck it into the ol memory banks. I have finally acquired enough ARs/lowers to fulfill my wants and needs and have turned my attention toward something that I have wanted for a while- a quality 7.62 semi-auto. I don’t really want to go uber tactical, just something handy, robust, and with the essential accessories (optic, light, sling, and mags). I have considered DSAs offerings, but since I know nothing more than the recommendations of others as far as civilian offerings I am not set in anything.

I was initially drawn to the models with short barrels, railed covers and HGs, because hey, that’s what I am used to with my work guns and is kinda my “default” setting. If the screw-on rail thing works and is able to deal with the real world then I guess that would be a solution, and I can easily attach a bit of rail for mounting a light where I want it.

If I recall, Larry advocated the 16" gun, but if the 18" run with better recoil characteristics and reduce failure points, well, no-brainer for my use.

What’s up with the DSA A2 type sights? Unnecessary? They seem a bit better protected from knuckle-draggery than the standard type, but unless they are definately more robust, does it even matter? I have been using A2 sights for a long time and I am proficient with them, but I am not really stuck on them if it means more hassle or unnecessary compromise.

What is the preferred mounting method for optics? Seems like the T-1/H-1 would be fine with the included mount or the M3 (cuz I got one) in the low Aimpoint mount. Does the stock height in relation to the rail make mounting low-powered variables marginal in relation to cheek-weld?

How do the DSA comps work, particulary the Belgian Short? Is it worth throwing on a PWS or similar comp/FH or marginal return on resources?

I tend to prefer the feel of a solid stock better than wire side-folder, so I kinda lean toward that. I do have an affinity for M4 type adjustable stocks, but I would rather start out with the “stock” stock before modifying anything.

What are the problem parts? What would be prudent to have extras of? What kind of life-cycle/replacement schedule do parts have? Will there be any compatability issue with DSA and other metric FAL suppliers? Are there any specific tools that are required for maintenance/repair?

What simple upgrades improve the system? Mag release upgrade/improvement, grip, furniture, etc? Are they simple things or will they require smithing?

What’s up with mags? Any particularly good or bad ones? Are the 30s more of a hassle than their extra bullets are worth? I see how much larger they are, but do they work? I assume that they are sub-optimal, so I am thinking that I will stick with the 20s and 5s (should I ever feel the need to schwack a deer with it) unless there are good higher cap options.

What are you doing for sling attachment, specifically a VCAS?

The two that DSA offer that most pique my interest are the SA58 Spartan and Carbine, 16" or 18". The Spartan is significantly more expensive but the product details are lacking and I really don’t know enough past the obvious (sights, grip, NP3, duracoat, +2 mags) to tell the difference or value gap.

Sorry for the littany of questions, I just realized that asking to be taught everything is pretty silly.

Thanks all.

I ran a FAL in competitions against AR and AK shooters for years, and was able to be competitive despite what people told me. I had a ban-era DSA SA58 carbine and loved that gun. Mine came with a muzzle break that would peel paint and knock out teeth, but it worked really well. If buying today I would buy the flash hider model though. I always ran mine with irons too as I never came up with a good way to mount optics at the time (this was around 199-2002 or so).

If I was buying today strictly for cool guy points, I’d pick up a SA58 TACP Para Tactical. If I was buying today from a practical standpoint I’d get what I had before but with a flash hider, the SA58C FAL Carbine but I’d like to have the A2 rear sight (or whatever they call it). I prefer the 16" but could probably be persuaded that the 18" was somehow better. Nah, no I couldn’t. :smiley:

IMHO something like the TA33 compact ACOG would be damn perfect on a 16" FAL.

I never was much of one for researching the history and the like to death, and certainly didn’t care about any kind of collecting. I also wasn’t really into technical aspects of guns at the time so can’t help much there either.

DSA has alot of choices for upgrading. I personally would stay in the 18" range, as far as extra parts. Springs ,Bolt and Bolt parts are all I keep on hand. And never had to change out any parts. There are a few FAL parts dealers that have a good selection od FAL parts. As far as folding stock, not a big fan. Not a good cheek weld on them, prefer the classic fixed.And again, DSA has choices for a number of different stocks. Its a great platform, Mags are cheap, and when I first started piddling with them wasn’t much you could do to them, except cut barrel, and maybe penguin furniture. Theyve come a ways since them.

Some other good brands would be Imbel and IMI Israeli. These were imported as Springfield Inc SAR48s.

You can also find genuine inch pattern receivers and guns from the 1970s.

And it goes without saying stay away from anything century or hesse made. But be aware that century did import a number of different FALs back in the day that they did not manufacture that would be ok.

DCI receivers are cast. DSA and Imbel receivers are forged.

Just stick with genuine foreign parts or DSA and forget any aftermarket stuff and you can’t go wrong.

IMO a very good upgrade and certainly robust. Be forewarned - early models of this sight had an issue where they leaned too far back and/or forward. Supposedly they quickly fixed this.

DSA heavy duty mount is GTG. I seem to remember seeing LAV with a Short Dot on this mount.

Para stock is a pretty damn good folder, and has good sling attachment options.

I can’t speak too intelligently to this, other than to say if you have a fixed stock you need the buttstock tool. Sight adjustment is with a simple cheap tool, I believe the SKS tool works as well.

The extended shelf selector/safety is an absolutely outstanding upgrade - unfortunately I’m not sure how durable this part is. It is “drop in” otherwise. The Poly hand guards are much nicer than the sheet metal ones.

Standard metric FAL mags are cheap and GTG - I would generally avoid 30’s due to reliability and bulk.

The poly HG’s can be easily modified with a drill and conventional swivel or with a strategically placed piece of rail.

If I were to recommend just one for serious purposes it would be the SA58 FAL Carbine PARA.

The FAL is one of my favorite rifles and epitome of a great weapon, in my opinion.

I also like the 18" barrels. It seems to make a well-balanced rifle without being too unwieldy. The plastic Belgian style handguards are the way to go, though the Izzy LB ones get points for looking cool.

My advice if you get a fixed stock is to get the STG-style stock, not the Belgian-style humpback stock. I’ve got rifles with both and much prefer the Austrian stock.

Someone was making some enlarged magazine releases at one point, maybe they still are. I bought a couple and prefer them to any of the original style ones. They are ambidextrous.

Even with the extended selector lever, I can’t hit it without moving my hand. It’s just the nature of the beast (or rather beauty, in this case.)

The FALFiles are a treasure trove of FAL info. Look around there and you’ll start figuring out what you want.

My only complaint for the FAL is it’s weight. One day I may build another one with a healthy dose of slimfast. But I’ve got too many AR projects to finish first.

Besides, if the Massoud ever sees the light of day, my need for another FAL will probably diminish :smiley:

I’m no expert, but heres a few tidbits.

Ed Vandenburg built mine off a G-1 kit. It has a 16" barrel and his brake. The combo is very loud indoors and requires good hearing protection. I had the DSA scope mount, but traded it off, I’m looking at replacing it with a ARMS (PRI made). Once I do I will add the T-1. I to us the short rail on the plastic forends.

There used to be a “Holland” mag release availible that offered a larger mag release profile, but i haven’t been able to find one to replace mine.

Parts kits are harder to find these days, so DSA might be the best bet.

First off, FAL Files are a wealth of info.

RE: barrel length
16 is louder than 18; but it boils down to what you like. 16 is handy; 18 is probably optimal. I just put PWS devices on my two FAL’s but have yet to get to the range. Will post a comment when I run them a bit.

RE: weight
The lower of a standard FAL is steel; this weight and tweaking the gas regulator can really tame the recoil. An aluminum lower (Hampton lower) makes a huge difference in balance and handling. I much prefer the aluminum.

RE: mag release
There are a couple of kinds. The Israeli is a bit longer and better than standard. Either FSE or Falcon makes, or made, an extended “paddle” mag release that is vastly superior.

RE:furniture
ERGO makes a great replacement grip that I strongly prefer because of a slightly different angle; this angle is closer to that of an M-4 than the original FAL grip. Although some like the angle of the original.

RE: sights, scope mounts
FAL’s are battle rifles and as such 2-3 MOA is what to expect. The standard sights are good enough, but I also have one with the A-2 type sight and the advantages of that type sight are well known.
The DSA and ARMs scope mounts replace the dust cover and are friction affixed to the receiver by screws. Both are bomb-proof. I just got a STANAG military scope mount that replaces the dust cover and is easily interchangeable; early read is that is hold zero well.

As previously said, it is very ergonomic. If you had never held one, and one was placed in your hands with your eyes closed, you’d just know where the controls were. FAL’s like to be run “wet” (plenty of oil on bolt assembly). Correct setting of the gas regulator is absolutely necessary. A gas regulator wrench is handy but not absolutely necessary; same for sight adjustment wrench. This rifle really benefits from a trigger job. A mild 2800 fps loading of 150 gr bullets will serve you well.

First and last, the FAL is a practical battle rifle designed to reliably send heavy bullets down range one at a time. You gotta love it for that.

Now you know everything I know about FAL’s.

The FAL reminds me of the Glock: great trigger reset, reliable, accurate but not the most accurate.

I recommend the SAW grip.

Hey Katar, what kind of FAL is LAV holding? Is that a 16 inch barrel?

That pic of Larry is from the Battle Rifle 1 class that he held a couple of years ago. He’s running his DSA SA58 carbine with a 16" barrel, aluminum lower receiver, DSA scope mount, Short Dot, G2 on a piece of 1913 rail he put on the standard handguards, and his front sling attachment is from a M1903 Springfield that he cut the synthetic handguards to accept. I’ve run a VCAS sling using the original front sling swivel on the barrel and the original rear attachment point on a Para stock:

Pic of one of the FN guys using my Para, just not slung up:

The A2 sights are nice, but the standard service sights for the FAL are quite useable and much more rugged than they look. I too thought “damn…no protective ears?” but in looking at FAL’s that are in the hands of people that probably would be better off with AK’s, I’ve not seen a FAL rear sight ever damaged.

The Dutch style mag release is a little longer and there’s more surface area to hit to release the mag.

I wear a size 12 glove, and can hit the standard magazine release on a metric FAL with my trigger finger without disrupting my master grip. If someone does not have wookie paws like myself, the magazine release is positioned so that you can release the mag with your support hand, like an AK mag, and the bolt release is located at an optimal place to actuate with your support hand.

The DSA scope mounts are good to go, a tad on the bulky side but rock solid. Once you install them though, you can’t really remove them for cleaning. Not a deal killer, it just makes you clean the rifle like a HK G3 with that long closed receiver shell.

The ARMS mount was one of the first of the really good practical mounts, but I have heard from several people I trust that they will eventually start to loose the ability to hold zero. They are less bulky than the DSA mount however.

The Belgian short muzzle device is very adequate for what it is. It suppresses flash decently. DSA and other people have taken some of the Austrian “Stoll” flash suppressor/grenade launcher muzzle devices and cut them down so that they almost look like a Vortex with straight tines. I’ve not shot one in low light so I can’t comment on the flash suppression.

This is a close up of the standard Belgian short device that’s mounted on my Rhodesian R1, which was used on the majority of metric FAL’s in service throughout the world:

And this is a cut down “Stoll” flash suppressor that’s mounted on my Para:

Opinions differ on stocks…no suprise there, everyone is an individual. I personally like the Para stock. The Israelis took that stock and put it on the Galil, so if you ever got any trigger time on one of them, that’s how they feel. If you find the LOP too long on the Para, you can either have the stuts cut down and shortened, or you can buy an adjustable LOP Para stock from DSA.

With the fixed stock, the recoil spring runs in a long tube that extends for the length of the buttstock…there’s not a lot you can do about LOP. I personally prefer the Belgian “humpback” style of stock, it has a bit more drop to it that fits me better. The Austrians were the only country to use a straight stock. I find the LOP to be a bit long if you’re used to running an M4 with the stock closed to the first or second position.

I’m 6’3", but again, everyone has their own personal tastes. Synthetic FAL fixed stocks will have a rubber butt pad that adds a bit to the LOP. I much prefer my wooden R1 stock with the steel buttplate because it’s a good 3/4" to 1" shorter than a synthetic stock.

Mags…stick with the 20’s, the 30’s that are usually most available are actually British L7 BREN magazines that will fit an Inch Pattern rifle (L1A1) but have had the locking tabs ground down to fit in a metric receiver. They can work just fine, but the BREN depended on gravity to help feed, since the mag fed from the top. Pushing 30 rounds of 7.62 NATO up is a lot to ask. I’m not saying they won’t work, but you’re more likely to see feeding issues with them. If they ran without issue, I’m sure the Brits and their Commonwealth troops would have used them as standard issue for their service rifles.

The South Africans made some metric 30 round mags, sometimes by welding two 20’s together. From what I’ve heard about their use in Angola and Mozambique, they didn’t work out so well and 20 rounders were used in the vast majority of cases.

Stick with military magazines, the Austrian Steyr magazines will be parkerized and have 3 witness holes, other metric magazines don’t have witness holes.

The Germans released their stockpile of FAL mags that they had in storage for their G1 that were issued to the Bundesgrenzschutz. You can still find them, they were sold in packs of 10, sealed, new, and with a painted finish.

The grip from a M249 is interchangeable with the standard metric FAL, and it’s a good upgrade, although the standard grip is just fine for me personally.

The standard safety on a metric FAL can be harder to reach for some people, but still easier than on a HK G3. The L1A1 safety is much easier to acutate with your master hand if you’re right handed, and you can put them on a metric rifle.

Standard selector compared to a G3 selector:

Extended selector on a British L1A1:

DSA offers an extended selector that I’d highly recommend.

As others have mentioned, there were other quality FAL’s that were available in years past. Original FN FAL’s were imported by several different companies, and will not be cheap. Springfield Armory imported Imbel contract FAL’s as the SAR-48 (pre 1989 import ban) and SAR-4800’s (post 1989 import ban). They were top shelf FAL’s, military grade, hard chrome lined bores.

There were a ton of FAL parts kits imported 10 years ago, and a lot of good builders assembled them on bare Imbel receivers, DSA receivers, Enterprise, and DCI receivers.

DSA and Imbel receivers are the best out there, besides original Belgian.

Hope that helps,

T.

If I didn’t live in NYS I would be interested in putting the KX3 Flash Suppressor on my 16 carbine to see what it does to the muzzle blast.

The shortened gas system is mostly an issue with SBR barrels either 11" or 13". It’s the same with an AR carbine gas system and a short barrel, there isn’t really enough dwell time to cycle the action reliably unless you open up the gas port significantly, you might even have to get a gunsmith to bore it out a little bit.

You can (and I have) had issues with a LONG gas system and a 16" carbine barrel.

I want to know the little intracasies and details of the platform. I don’t intend on this becoming the be all and end all information source, but it would be nice to have a source for that info.

There are plenty of sources of good information but the FALfiles is really the best. You can use their search feature to get an encyclopedia of knowledge on the FAL system. If you have technical questions look for the guy with the Wile E. Coyote avatar (Gary J.).

From my perspective it’s an amazing GP weapon that does a lot of things very well. Today I’m just getting back from a DMR class put on by LRI (run by Littlelebowski’s brother) where I used my FAL. In fact I’m writing this from a bar in Denver International.

Outside of some ammo issues (got some weak German NATO milsurp) that were fixed by borrowing some match .308 from a classmate it performed magnificently with a TA-33 ACOG. The ACOG is a PERFECT companion to the FAL, just get the lowest possible mount you can find (TA-51 is what I went with).

If I did my part it averaged about 2 moa and I was ringing steel out to 600 yards on 18x24" targets pretty easily. It makes an excellent DMR weapon. I’ll be doing a more formal write-up/AAR on the class and the FAL when I get back home.