This thread is meant to be a philosophical discussion, nothing more.
It’s a SHTF(extended) or it’s TEOTWAWKI. Your family is slowly starving to death. Do you loot from non-occupied dwellings or businesses? I say yes.
Same scenario except everything has been looted from easy targets. All remaining food is in the hands of individuals and groups. Do you try and take food from others by force? If you answer yes, how would you feel if someone better trained, larger group, etc. decides to take your remaining food? As in, you can’t prevent them? If you would take from someone by force, and someone did it to you, what would your attitude be? If it’s ok for you to do it, isn’t it ok for someone else?
You or a family member needs meds to survive. Do you loot the pharmacy? There would be other people that need the same meds. By you taking them, then you will have condemned people to die. Would you be ok with it if someone else did it before you? Would it be better to try and share the meds?(Logistics difficult). Possibly at least more people would have longer to put their families in a better position before they died.
Do you take medicine from others? If so then if someone took your medicine then turn about is fair play?
Hopefully we can have a productive discussion. I realize there are many, many variables but let’s keep it civil and thought provoking.
pharmacy, yes…others, no. i wouldnt take meds someone else needed from them, but i do feel that places like Wal mart are gonna be first come first serve. i would only take the meds i need and some basic antibiotics. of course there is different levels of seriousness…temporary type situation, and then theres full on SHTF type that will change a persons ideals. a stockpile of various medications would be as good as gold if you could defend it. i guess i dont really worry about the food issue…im from Iowa, where your food comes from, as well as your food’s food. i have as good of a shot feeding my family as anyone does, and maybe better.
The one thing that many other blogs and forums have said is “No, its not moral”. I fully support this but I also ask this question many times which I believe you have brought up… “Is it stealing if the owners have abandoned it?” Just like cars on the side of the road go up for auction after so long because they are considered abandoned. The vehicle has value but the owner has left it and not returned for it.
This is my response to your similar question in the “What would you miss most” thread. I am going to delete it from that thread, and help move the conversation over here.
Someone who is willing to take goods by force, should neither be surprised or upset when that force is resisted.
I’m not going to stop someone “harvesting” from an abandoned building or vehicle. But if it belongs to me, it would be best for all involved not to do so.
I just want to be left alone, to care for those I care about. I will use the items I paid for to do so.
And I will be just as polite to everyone as they are to me.
we can all say how we would like to react in an end of the world as we know it situation, but if it really happened and you were for whatever reason expelled from dwelling or have ran out of food you instantly become one of two things, a begger or a taker. if it comes down to my family members starving or me taking something that is not mine, well, the answer is a given. pride goes right out the window when your wife, child, or grandchild is whithering away.
Absolutely, but I can tell you one thing: Nothing owned by a corporation, in my mind, is a legit item that belongs to any one “individual”. If you question this, then well, sit back and question your relationship with the child hood hero Robin Hood, and also ponder what it would be like to watch your neighbor, your child, your friend, wither away and die while you hold tight to your morals.
You say “abandoned”, I say “un-occupied by a human”. If your definition of abandoned is that it is literally “out of business” before you would harvest goods from it then you’re out of touch with reality. I wont be thinking a second about Walmart’s current profit margin if my fiance is about to go into a diabetic coma, and whoa be anyone that gets in my way and tells me I’m breaking a “law”, or being “immoral”.
a few months ago there was a case where a young couple from the SF bay area was missing. they’d gone camping in a red Toyota 4x4 truck and hadn’t been heard from. local SAR couldn’t really hunt for them because they didn’t know exactly where they were supposed to be. the family hired a private helicopter crew that eventually found them.
the truck had died trying to cross a swollen creek/river and they had broken into a cabin for shelter, warmth and food. they left a note with their contact info offering to pay for the damage and supplies.
in a case like that, i don’t see a problem breaking into a home or cabin in the middle of nowhere to make use of whatever is there that you NEED. try to minimize damage, treat the place like it’s your own. if it’s a SHTF event, be aware that the actual owner may show up at some point and then you’ve got some ‘splain’ to do. if it’s a personal SHTF like this scenario that’s not as big a concern. if it’s a major SHTF, it could be someone else trying to move in on the location even if it’s not theirs.
its amazing the extents people go to when they abandon their principles. say what you want but if youre starving and there is food right in front of you… youre gonna eat it. no one will starve to death over principle.
This got me thinking, as we are speaking of morals. How much can/will you help others?
I am the only one on my road with a standby generator, my neighbor has a PTO driven unit. So everyone in the area is going to be beating on our doors.
Lending electricity to keep someone from freezing todeath or to keep their food supply from going bad (short term) I have nothing against, but longer term…
Everyone for themselves. If this person can obtain meds in your family, then help them. If they cannot, well they probably are not going to survive. I am being realistic. If it was you, i would try to side with these people to offer your services in exchange for food or meds. If that doesn’t work well you shouldn’t have went to school to be something worthless like a guidance counselor.
People become desperate and do stupid things.
Always remember taking isn’t wrong if the person is already dead, its called recycling.
I don’t know if it’s like this anymore as I haven’t spent much time back home (I’m sure it is still the same though), but in parts of Wyoming people leave their hunting cabins open and with minimal food for this very reason. My parents used one once in an emergency just long enough to warm up.
This might sound kind of hippy dippy, but I think you should not assume that you are the only person in your immediate community that will have something to contribute towards survival simply because you have guns, a generator, and a freezer full of deer meat.
There is strength in numbers, and so having a group of individuals larger then a small family unit may not be a bad thing. So to answer your question I would help immediate members of the community to the degree that they are able and willing to reciprocate with some for of similar help. For example, my fiance knows how to suture wounds shut, and other semi-advanced medical treatments. If I wasn’t with her, and she was my neighbor, I would like having her around because of that knowledge. What if your neighbor is an electrician? Has woodsman experience? Knows how to garden?
I’ve been in situations where people that didn’t mean anything to me, complete strangers got really hurt, and I didn’t have to do anything in response, but I still couldn’t turn my back. I hate seeing victims, and it’s a something I can’t just turn off. So I must say I probably would offer more help then most. Not to everyone though.
Morals and Standards are the product of society. If there is no longer a society in which to enforce those morals/standards, I don’t see what the problem is with taking what you need/want. I will do what ever it takes and take what ever I can from who or what ever is available IOT survive. I know that sounds bad, but it is true. If there are people that I can help I will. But they must bring something to the table also. I think people get too caught up in personal or societal values.
Just remember, the winner rights history or in this case, is a around to tell their version of the story.
Don’t read things into my words that are not there. Don’t pick a fight that does not exist.
I said “if it belongs to me”. Did you hear me mention Wal-mart?
I said that people should be left alone with their possesions, and if you choose not to do so, then they will likely disagree.
Do whatever you wish. Honestly. I do not care one whit what you do.
If I had insulin, and had some to share, I would do so. Willingly, and for free. But I will be blunt, if you try and take something that belongs TO ME by force, it’s not going to be an enjoyable day for you. That’s not a threat, it’s just asking to be left alone.
I do not give a fat rodent’s backside about Wal-mart. In fact, I work for a competitor, so feel free to strip the place clean and burn it to the ground, if it makes you feel any better.
A civil discussion is a wonderful thing, by the way. I’m sorry to hear your lady has diabetes. So does my best friend. I’m not real eager to test things like shelf-life.
Relax and breath. You are seeing an arguement where none exists.
If I were to take supplies I would leave contact information and provided society recovered make it right with whoever I took them from. During Katrina a lot of people did take things they needed to survive and left information.
If you can build alliances with neighbors / friends it will give you a great advantage.
"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall, one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle. " - Edmund Burke.
in a shtf i wouldnt leave info. i would return after the crisis was over but who knows who is gonna get that info. some one just a little more desperate than you comes along and sees the info and thinks… well might as well take it from them then. dont invite trouble its always willing to stop over.
I wasn’t trying to argue at all, and if I came off as such I apologize, I was simply trying to draw a line in the sand regarding my position on the individual and the corporate entity. It is something that has been blurred in this society, and needs to be addressed. It is also, and I mean this from past research, written into law that damage to property is considered “violence” as well as potentially an “act of terror” equal to that of something committed against a human. Watching media reports of recent natural disasters also shows pretty clearly that the big bad liberal media machine paints looters of a corporate location as individuals who are worthy of receiving nothing less then the States wrath. The hungry family is looked at as equal to the mob of unruly punks when it comes to societies interpretation of this entire topic.
You call me out on hating, I’ll do the same, don’t hate simply because I bring passion to this discussion. I wasn’t attacking you, I was explaining my perspective in relationship to your response. Do I have a chip on my shoulder about the realities of my life in relationship to the greater world? Yea maybe I do, but the only reason I write about it is to help articulate the dramatic reality of the topic of this post.
yeah… i’ve heard the same, but never run into a place like that where i needed to check.
closer to civilization i have seen cabins in he hills while out on my MTB or motorcycle… places that looked like nobody was around. on occasion i’ve stopped to use a hose spigot for water, but didn’t go poking around. these were in a location where i’d expect them to be locked… because they were not that far out from town, just “out of the way”.
not easy to go sneaking anywhere wearing brightly colored lycra cycling clothing. and simple enough to explain my presence there looking for water.
i do know an old abandoned cabin at an old mining claim. several years ago i spent a bunch of time cleaning up the area, burning and hauling out trash, etc. it’s in a nice location that’s out of sight and that should be defensible, scouted out LP/OP sights but didn’t get around to improving them.
