TacSol Uppers and Custom triggers

AR/M4 AR Pistols & Pistol Caliber ARs
1

First let me say that this is not an attack on Tactical Solutions Uppers - I have 2 and I love them. Here is how it all started:

I bought a complete RRA lower with a 2-stage NM trigger (new style, unnotched hammer). I put a TacSol M4 upper on it and it was a single shot. The gun would fire the first round from the magazine, eject, feed the second round, but would not reset the hammer. I already had a DPMS .223 with a mil-spec trigger and the uppper worked great with that lower. I wanted the RRA lower to be a dedicated .22 LR lower and really liked the NM trigger. I called customer service at Tactical Solutions and they sent me a prepaid shipping label and asked me to return the whole gun to them. They tuned the upper with the lower and when they returned it to me it worked perfectly. That rifle shoots Federal Red and Blue bulk packs, Winchester 333s and Wildcats, CCI Mini Mags and standard velocity, Wolf and Eley Match and Federal Auto Match with absolute reliability. That is a real testament to Tactical Solutions Customer Service Department!

My grandson liked shooting the M4 so much that I didn’t get to shoot it much when we went to the range. His only complaint about the rifle was the weight. (He’s a pretty small 11 year old.) I found out that Spike’s Tactical had complete lowers on sale cheap so I ordered one. About the same time, several dealers were selling TacSol uppers cheap and the price included free shipping. I ordered an LT upper to make up a light carbine for my grandson to shoot. When all the parts arrived, I matched up the Spike’s lower with the LT upper and it worked great right out of the box. The problem was, the Spike’s trigger was a nastier than usual mil-spec and I wasn’t able to get the kind of groups out of the rifle that I had hoped for.

I decided to try a Timney 3 lb solid trigger. I ordered one and when it came in, I found that it was extremely easy to install and had a great trigger pull. I was really excited about the whole thing until I took it to the range. I had light hammer strikes, doubling, OOBs, failures to feed, fire and eject. I tried it with the M4 upper with the same results. I tried it with my .223 upper and it worked great. I even tried the LT upper with the RRA lower that had been tuned for my M4 upper and it was a single shot, just like the M4 had been. I then tried the LT upper on my DPMS lower with a mil-spec trigger and it worked great. I still wanted to have a really good trigger on this rifle though.

I called Tactical Solutions again and asked them for some advice. Lon told me that some of their customers had reported having good luck with the Geissele SSA triggers, but he thought they were a pretty expensive solution for a .22. He told me if I bought another RRA NM trigger for the Spike’s lower they would tune the gun for me again like they did the M4. I found them on sale at a decent price and ordered one, but I also ordered a Geissele SSA just to hedge my bets. I installed the Geissele first and took the rifle to the range fully expecting it to work great. Unfortunately, that didn’t work out so good either. Again I had some doubling, light strikes and failures to feed.

At that point I decided to remove the Geissele, install the new RRA NM and send it all off to Tacsol. Just for kicks I ran by the range to try it out first. I first tried shooting Winchester 333s in it and had some failures to feed and fire. I broke out a box of Federal Auto Match and fired off 35 rounds without a hitch. Next up I tried some Federal Bulk in the blue box and it also worked great. I went on to shoot 100 rounds of Federal bulk in the red box and it functioned perfectly also. A few days later I returned to the range and tried some Win 333s again. For some unknown reason, they functioned just fine and I ran 50 rounds of them through it.

This has been a long and expensive experience. Here is what I have learned so far. TacSol uppers seem to work great with mil-spec triggers and after all, that is what they were designed to work with. Custom triggers are a whole different story though. Just because someone else has tried a trigger and has had good luck with it, does not mean your results will be the same. I’m glad I went through all this though, because I learned a lot along the way. I still love my TS uppers and I’m glad I have 2 that function well and have triggers that I can actually shoot some decent groups with from the bench.

2

I have travel down the same road. Biggest problem is that there are what I now believe to be three bolt designs. My gen 1 bolts run with any trigger. The Gen 2 suck and will only run with single stage mil-spec triggers. Then after bitching at them at this year’s SHOT Show I find out they have another or Gen 3 version. Sending them back my rifle is not an option as I don’t have a lot of faith in them or their ability especially with ARs so they sent me a new Bolt Carrier Group. It also runs fine with two stage triggers like Rocks and Geissele.

I have gone around and around with Lon more than once on a few issues and they always want the rifle. I believe it’s a way for them to learn seeing as the have no idea what specs they should be manufacturing to. I received an upper from them that had the front pivot pin hole machined way out of location and when matched with any of the twenty plus lowers I have here would not work. Don’t you know according to Lon that all my lowers, LaRue, Rocks, LMTs, Sun Devils and POFs were out of spec! But if I would send him the lower that I wanted it to run on Tac Sol would fix the problem and take care of it. When I explained it should work on all of them he thought I was crazy and if that’s what I wanted then I could ship them all to him.

While I may look like a dumb ass I’m not. I have spent over twenty plus years in a manufacturing and product design so I know my way around a set of calipers.

I own four Tac Sol uppers in different configurations and I assure you there will not be any more. As of now S&W will get my future business.

3

crossgun - sorry you’ve had such bad luck with your uppers. Other than trying to get mine to work with after-market triggers, mine have been pretty flawless. The M4 has around 3K rounds and the LT around 2K and function with a pretty good variety of ammo. Your information about different generations of TS bolts rings true. When my M4 was new and wouldn’t function with the RRA NM trigger, Lon asked me for a number that was on the upper. When I gave it to him he said, “Yes, you better send it back to us for some tuning.” I guess I was lucky, because mine came back shooting fine and has done so ever since.

4

I’m using the Geiselle SSA trigger on my lower. It had issues but the upper also had issues with the mil spec trigger that was originally there. It ran better with the SSA than the single stage but still had too many issues. Turned out I had a Gen 2 bolt and that was the cause of the problems. I just got it back from them with a new bolt and barrel and ran 500 rounds through it without any problems feeding, firing or jamming.

5

GPalmer,

Glad you have yours up and running now. I can’t fault TacSol’s customer service. They were good to me when I sent in the M4 and it came back working great. These things can be really problematic. I see quite a few complaints about Spike’s .22 uppers also. Once you get the problems ironed out they sure are a lot of fun (and cheap to shoot). You’re a step ahead of me though - I never did get mine to run with the Geissele SSA. I have a Nordic NC22 on the lower with the SSA and it works great with it.

Tom

6

Not working with my Geiselle SSA lower was the reason I sold my Tacsol. Bought a Nordic mainly due to it’s ability to run with just about any trigger out there. Works great with my SSA and on another lower that’s got a RRA with Bill Springfield’s competition trigger job.

7

I also have a Nordic and it works with my Geissele SSA and 2 other lowers have have RRA NM 2-stage triggers. Pretty slick, aren’t they?

8

I wonder if the compatibility has changed over time. When I was chatting with Lon, he mentioned that they liked the SSA trigger a great deal since the hammer spring isn’t reduced weight.

9

I have a Tac Sol upper but I have no idea of which bolt group I have. What are the differences between the Gen I,II, and III bolts?
Thanks.

10

I’m not sure of what the generations are. I THINK my original problematic bolt was gen two. It was bought roughly a year ago which seems to be the time when they were having issues with the bolts. The problematic bolt I had had a curved face where it contacted the trigger to cock it on the return. I’m not sure what Gen 1 had. The new bolt I got back has an almost squared off face where it contacts the trigger. Pretty much straight down and straight back, I’ll grab a pic in a minute though all I have is a crappy cell phone to take it with.

11

OK, here is the new bolt. On the last bolt the portion labeled A didn’t come forward as far, it cut off before the face of the bolt. On the old bolt the section labeled B had a radius to it instead of being squared off like it is in this pic. Hope this helps!

12

Interesting! My first upper was an M4. It wouldn’t work with my RRA NM trigger. Sent it back and they radiused the bottom surface of the bolt you have circled as B. My second was an LT. It was already radiused like the modified M4 bolt. It won’t work on my RRA lower with an RRA NM, but works on my Spike’s lower with an RRA NM trigger. Go figure… (Neither work with my DPMS lower with a Geissele SSA but my Nordic .22 upper works fine with it.)

13

Hmmm, I wonder if the newer bolt would let it work with the SSA. My personal experience was that my original problematic bolt worked better with the SSA than the stock GI trigger that was there to begin with. It wasn’t a big difference but ignition did become more reliable. The biggest difference I noticed was that timing on double taps improved greatly, they were very touchy and had to be timed very closely with the GI trigger. With the SSA I could use my normal timing.

14

I don’t have any idea what generation either of my bolts are, but both seemed to work OK with stock triggers/hammers. I’m beginning to thing that each one is a separate and individual case. I wish someone would explain to me why the LT upper won’t work with the lower that the M4 uses. The LT hasn’t had any modifications, but works fine with the Spikes lower. Both lowers have RRA NM triggers.
I’m sure there is probably a logical explanation, but it escapes me. :confused:

Tom

15

Thanks GP for the pix. I looked at my bolt and it looks very similar to yours. I have the stock trigger group and have had a lot of trouble with my unit. The biggest problem has been the TS upper does not fit my lowers. I have 7 different lowers and the TS only fits one. TS wanted me to send the complete gun to them for tuning but I wanted the upper to fit all my lowers not just the one they tuned. I decided to modify the upper to fit my lowers not the other way around. I have had to change the front lug radius, to get the upper to pivot. The rear lug retaining hole to allow the pin to go through. I have removed metal from the bottom of the upper receiver to let the two parts mate without being in a bind. I have ran about 5K of .22 through the unit just to make it work. At this point in time it runs about 97% of the time, and will work with just about any .22 I feed it. I have only got it to work reliably with 2 lowers so far but I am happy with it. I think they have the potential to have a great product just too bad they have not perfected it yet. When they can make it truly a drop in unit they will have a great alternative for a .22 plinker.